My T levels are REALLY LOW despite maximum dosage - How is this possible?!

[Pacman]

I've been on TRT since 2013, so I am no newbie to this. Long story short, my T levels have been relatively consistent with my prescribed dosages, up until a few months ago, and I have no idea why!

February 2017

Dosage: 1 mL of Test Cyp (200 mg/mL) Monday, 0.5 Test Prop (50 mg/mL) on Friday, 150 iu HCG every day.

Lab results:

T, total - 494 ng/dL (348-1197)
T, free - 11.4 ng/mL (9.3 - 26.5)
DHT - 39 ng/dL (30-85)
Estradiol, sensitive - 19.4 pg/dL (8.0 - 35.0)

Being that the results were super low, my dosage was increased slightly, detailed below.

June 2017

Dosage: 0.55 mL of Test Cyp (200 mg/mL) Monday+Friday, 0.8 Test Prop (50 mg/mL) Monday+Friday, 150 iu HCG every day.


Lab results:

T, total - 472 ng/dL (348-1197)
T, free - 10.7 ng/mL (9.3 - 26.5)
DHT - Pending ng/dL (30-85) - still waiting on results
Estradiol, sensitive - pedning pg/dL (8.0 - 35.0) - still waiting on results


So how can this be possible? Is it possible that the pharmacy is compounding the T incorrectly? I have been using the same one for the last year or so, but only saw this drop in T in February. What is going on?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Where are you getting your testosterone from?

 

[Pacman]

Where are you getting your testosterone from?

It comes from Hallandale Pharmacy. Are there any known issues with them?

 

[Vince Carter]

If you're shooting M/F...tell us exactly what times you inject, and exactly what day/time youre pulling labs.

 

[Vettester Chris]

Prior to 2017, what were your serum levels looking like on a similar dosage? That protocol would put me easily over 1,000ng/dl.

 

[Pacman]

If you're shooting M/F...tell us exactly what times you inject, and exactly what day/time youre pulling labss .

Dosage: 0.55 mL of Test Cyp (200 mg/mL) Monday+Friday, 0.8 Test Prop (50 mg/mL) Monday+Friday, 150 iu HCG every day.

I took labs on Friday before the injections.

 

[Pacman]

Prior to 2017, what were your serum levels looking like on a similar dosage? That protocol would put me easily over 1,000ng/dl.

Yes, they were good in 2016.

July 2016

T, total - 1026
T,free - 31.2

February 2016

T, total - 726
T, free - 38

 

[Vince Carter]

Dosage: 0.55 mL of Test Cyp (200 mg/mL) Monday+Friday, 0.8 Test Prop (50 mg/mL) Monday+Friday, 150 iu HCG every day.

I took labs on Friday before the injections.

I would like to see the times of the day that youre injecting and having blood drawn, but it would indicate you're going on 5 days post injection on this wonky Mon and Fri protocol....very poorly designed and managed protocol and your results indicate such.

 

[Pacman]

I would like to see the times of the day that youre injecting and having blood drawn, but it would indicate you're going on 5 days post injection on this wonky Mon and Fri protocol....very poorly designed and managed protocol and your results indicate such.

Hmm, it was meant to combat the previous low results of February 2017 wherein I took 1 cc cyp on Monday + 0.5 cc prop on Friday - and I drew blood on Monday prior to shot.

As of the most recent injection, I injected cyp+prop (0.55+0.8, respectively) on Monday morning (before noon) and on Friday early morning I drew blood around 8 am prior to shots.

Is this really a wonky protocol? I was under the impression that it's better because it spaces out evenly the injections so it should give more stable levels etc.. But under 500 in both blood tests? That is really concerning for me.

I've also had some dry ejaculations recently in the past months which concerned me a tad bit although I read that they aren't dangerous, but I do understand now why they were happening. Just mentioning that as a side thing, don't know if relevant.

Also, one more thing- I noticed that with the cyp injections it has been really hard to inject in my leg. Like I need a lot of pressure more than I used to. Is it possible that I am not injecting in the muscle? I am grasping at straws here, because I have no idea what's going on....

 

[Vince Carter]

It is wonky, monday and friday makes no sense. Bi weekly injections are run E3.5D, and like I said, if you're injecting on Mon and then having labs on Friday, 5 days later, i bet your levels do appear low. If what you're after is more stable levels Mon AM, Thurs PM would be a more conventional approach to this. In that protocol you would test Mon AM.
But that is...rather unconventional way to approach a protocol, M/F. Using Cyp and Prop together isn't that unusual. I bet you feel pretty good Fri/Sat/Sun/Mon, is that right?

 

[Pacman]

It is wonky, monday and friday makes no sense. Bi weekly injections are run E3.5D, and like I said, if you're injecting on Mon and then having labs on Friday, 5 days later, i bet your levels do appear low. If what you're after is more stable levels Mon AM, Thurs PM would be a more conventional approach to this. In that protocol you would test Mon AM.
But that is...rather unconventional way to approach a protocol, M/F. Using Cyp and Prop together isn't that unusual. I bet you feel pretty good Fri/Sat/Sun/Mon, is that right?

I don't feel that much better on the weekend than I do the rest of the week. But I mean, even in my previous protocol where I did 1 cc cyp on Monday + 0.5 prop on Friday - I blood tested Monday morning, and in July 2016 I was fine but February 2017 I wasn't.

How is this possible? I did mention that in the past months it's been harder for me to inject the cypionate, as in it is taking a lot more pressure on my end to inject in my quads (just the cypionate, not the prop). I am grasping at straws here, but is it possible that the pharmacy is messing up with the concentration ratio? Maybe putting too little testosterone in the oil? Is there a way to test this? Are there any independent labs I can give 0.1 cc cypionate and have them verify the concentration? Because this is so illogical that I am injecting basically a maximum dosage (in the general sense of what's "accepted") and to have T levels like I had after three months of my original 'two pumps a day' Androgel 1.62% in 2013 (my original prescription). And it's not like it's always been like this, I have had pretty decent levels on my low day (in July 2016 I had 1026 ng/dL on the day of cyp injection before injection, 4 days after 0.5 prop but the prop probably half lived by then so that doesn't matter much because my current blood tests @ less than 500 ng/dL were the same amount of time after double the prop amount injection, same amount of time after injection) at my current dosage...

I am really disturbed, because to tell you the truth, I usually err on the side of taking a little more than taking a little less, not that that should matter much anyways on this level. So it cannot be me who's not taking enough, unless I am not injecting correctly?

I am more suspicious of the pharmacy. Nelsen asked above where I get my T from, and I answered. Are there pharmacies that are known to mess up on their compounded medicine/hormones? Anyone know of any known (previous or current) issues with the one I mentioned?

 

[Vince Carter]

Just to cover the bases you've read the labeling on your vial/package, I know I've (not accidentally) had 100 and 150mg concentrations before though 200 is the most common.
Is that from Hallandale by chance? Their Cyp is known to be thicker or harder to inject. Try warming it up...I load a syring end then hold it lengthwise under my lips for a few minutes and warming it does make it easier to push. I know every time on the forum the few times it's happened some one comes and totally shuts down any discussion of the quality of the product. I think one other guy on EM came in with labs supporting something just like what you're experiencing, but like I said, that was quickly dismissed as every vial is tested, no pharmacy would geek it up that bad, etc etc etc.

I cant remember who that was...

 

[Vince Carter]

this is it

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?8395-Bunk-Meds-from-Hallandale&highlight=hallandale

 

[Pacman]

this is it

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?8395-Bunk-Meds-from-Hallandale&highlight=hallandale

Thank you for finding that thread.

Honestly, I do not accept the whole "it's impossible to mess up because of tight and strict regulations" thought process because unless every single vial compounded by the pharmacy is tested by an independent 3rd party and verified every single time, I fully accept the possibility that people can be messing up, or the machines are inaccurate/have a bug etc etc. In every industry with tight and strict regulations, mishaps happen. Nothing is impossible, especially when humans are in charge of oversight (i.e. everything).

I am not necessarily making any claim that anyone is doing this on purpose, in fact I am more concerned of the possibility that they themselves are not aware that they are messing up or that something is inaccurate about their compounding process, or internal verification process etc.

Again, I do not want anyone to feel that I am accusing Hallandale Pharmacy of malicious intent or purposely doing anything for personal profit like diluting concentrations etc until there is further evidence to indicate that, but I would like to say that it does not seem sufficient to have a source check itself, doesn't that make sense?

What are some independent 3rd parties I can have test their vials of testosterone? I am not the first one to complain about the suspected low quality of their T, and last time it was "resolved" internally by the pharmacy. Also, there is no issue of it being in hot weather, this I can guarantee. So what shall we do from here? Where can I take this to?

 

[Vince Carter]

Hallandales CYP put me @ 1387 Total about 24-26hrs post injection of 28mg so it's good-to-go at least in this case.

 

[Pacman]

Hallandales CYP put me @ 1387 Total about 24-26hrs post injection of 28mg so it's good-to-go at least in this case.

It must be something on my end then, I really really hope so at least. 1386 is amazing, what do you mean injection of 28 mg? Isn't it 200 mg per 1 cc? Can you clarify your dosage? In any case, I am really super happy that your T levels are good!

One question though, why are you testing your blood at peak? Wouldn't it be better to test it at base levels prior to injection? (i.e. if for example once every 7 days, then on day 1 prior to injection)