Men with low T report similar satisfaction on Clomid as they do on testosterone replacement

[Nelson Vergel]

I do not know if I believe this.

(From the American Urology Association Conf- May 2-14- Orlando)

MP48-06: HYPOGONADAL MEN TAKING CLOMIPHENE CITRATE REPORT SIMILAR SATISFACTION COMPARED TO MEN ON TESTOSTREONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY
Ranjith Ramasamy*, Jason Scovell, Jason Kovac, James Dupree, Gavin Langille, Dolores Lamb, Larry Lipshultz, Houston, TX

Abstract: MP48-06
Introduction and Objectives
The efficacy of oral clomiphene citrate (CC) in the treatment of male hypogonadism has been reported. We compared satisfaction and treatment efficacy in men with symptomatic hypogonadism taking CC, testosterone gel (T gel), and testosterone injections (T injections).

Methods
Men receiving CC or T gel or T injections for symptomatic hypogonadism (total testosterone < 300 ng/dl) were asked to report satisfaction with their current treatment regimen with ADAM and qADAM scores. Serum testosterone levels were collected on the same day that men filled out the ADAM questionnaire. Treatment efficacy was evaluated using pre- and post-treatment serum testosterone, and satisfaction was assessed using androgen deficiency in aging male (ADAM) and quantitative ADAM (qADAM) questionnaire scores

Results
The charts of 451 men on testosterone supplementation (51 on CC, 265 on T injections, and 135 on T gel) were reviewed. The mean serum total T levels in men on CC (525 ng/dL) was lower (p<0.01) than men taking T injections (1015 ng/dL), but similar to serum total T in men on gels (453.3 ng/dL, p=0.07). Post-treatment testosterone levels were higher in men taking CC, T injections and T gels compared to pre-treatment levels (227 ng/dL, 221 ng/dL, 211 ng/dL p<0.01) Despite differences in serum T, men on CC, T injection, and T gel reported similar satisfaction levels. Both the ADAM scores (2.37, 2.81, and 3.17) and quantitative ADAM scores (37.2, 36.8, and 35.6) for the men on different testosterone supplementation regimens were similar. Men taking CC were younger (38.5y) than men taking T injections (46.8y) or T gels (59.4, p< 0.01).

Conclusions
Testosterone supplementation regimens including CC, T gels and T injections are efficacious in improving serum total testosterone levels. However, men taking clomiphene citrate or testosterone gels report similar satisfaction levels compared to men taking testosterone injections despite lower serum total testosterone levels.

 

[txmx]

I do know that I don't believe this - at least based on my own experience. If this were true everyone would be popping a clomid tab and enjoying the easy life.

 

[paco]

Count me as a disbeliever, based on my own experience. Where are the people reporting how great they feel on clomid?

 

[DHM]

+1. Numbers look better with no change in symptoms on clomid.

 

[Traderj]

I am on Chlomid now and so far I can say I feel a little better. No big changes. Only been about 30 days so far and set to get more blood work. I will report on my results coming up.

 

[Loki]

I for one could not disagree more... I can't pin the way I felt solely on the clomid but it was the lowest point in my life!!! When I started I felt terrible (with symptoms that sent me to the Mayo clinic) and when I stopped I felt better... Dr. Saya did say I was on too large of a dose and likely my E2 was way too high....

 

[DLK]

I've been on clomid for 3 months now and yes it increased my T levels significantly but it hasn't made me feel near as good as I have on testosterone, if they gave clomid to low t men and it upped their levels and made them feel a little better than of course you can mark it as improvement, but they can't tell how much better the guy on the test feels than the guy on the clomid.

 

[Vitamin_C]

I would only flirt with clomid attempting a restart, but I would be very conservative on the dosing, clomid has a nasty side effect profile.

 

[Traderj]

Well I have a little more to report. I went on a small dose of Chlomid daily for 35 days. At thirty days I had my T checked. Good news is it went up by what I think is a significant amount. From 260 to 581. I was happy with that.

My diet is different now. So that may have had some effect also. Estradiol is up also to 26.8 so need to watch that.

Finally as far as side effects I really have not seen anything. What kind of side effects have you guys experienced?

Also I cant say I feel any better. Probably about the same. Maybe slightly better. How long did it take you guys to see results on feeling better from an increase of testosterone.

 

[DLK]

I really haven't felt better on it, as far as raising T levels it's worked well but there seems to be something missing in the process that's not working to change the low T symptoms. I believe there hasn't been enough research on clomid use for TRT it may be useful in restarting your production after a steroid cycle but for long term TRT not so sure.

 

[ERO]

it is purely anecdotal, but in all the forums I have never seen anyone post that they are on Clomid mono therapy and that they feel awesome as well.

 

[Traderj]

This is interesting. I wonder if that is always the case? I don't feel worse but I don't feel better either. Would you guys normally expect an increase in T from 260 to 581 to feel noticeably better?

I also wonder if I stay on for another month would that increase it more? If so how much more? Also are my results temporary?

Seems like I just have more questions.

 

[CoastWatcher]

This is interesting. I wonder if that is always the case? I don't feel worse but I don't feel better either. Would you guys normally expect an increase in T from 260 to 581 to feel noticeably better?

I also wonder if I stay on for another month would that increase it more? If so how much more? Also are my results temporary?

Seems like I just have more questions.

Can you remind me - are you young and in the midst of a restart?

 

[Traderj]

I am mid fifties, never been on anything. I have no medications or prescriptions until I went down this path. Just been working on nutritional and exercise lifestyle stuff so far. Never even did Testosterone.

 

[ERO]

My 2 cents, and again, purely anecdotal: If you are in your 50s like I am, a twice a week injection of Testosterone is going to work better and make you feel better than trying to elevate your natural T levels. Nothing wrong with trying, but we are not in our 20s and 30s anymore, so it is unlikely to elevate your levels to a high enough point where you can really feel it. Kind of like what you are experiencing so far.

 

[Traderj]

Got it. This is all totally new to me.

 

[Traderj]

Well Just an update I am about in the middle of a 90 day course of Chlomid and DHEA. And as you saw above I have seen an increase in my T levels. At 90 days I will test again.

As for how I am feeling which is the real test. I have to say better. Mood moderately better, but also some things changed at work that could have contributed to that.

Libido is definitely up. And much more wood. Morning wood spontaneous wood during the day. Cant wait to see what my labs are at 90 days.


I will keep you updated.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Well Just an update I am about in the middle of a 90 day course of Chlomid and DHEA. And as you saw above I have seen an increase in my T levels. At 90 days I will test again.

As for how I am feeling which is the real test. I have to say better. Mood moderately better, but also some things changed at work that could have contributed to that.

Libido is definitely up. And much more wood. Morning wood spontaneous wood during the day. Cant wait to see what my labs are at 90 days.


I will keep you updated.

Glad to hear and also VERY happy to see you posting about your on-balance positive experience thus far with Clomid. Successful Clomid treatment is more of a marathon than a sprint.

 

[Traderj]

Another update on my Clomid and DHEA. Physically i am feeling better. Not through the roof, over the top better. But definitely better. Like I said before, some of that may be work related but not all of it. Plenty of morning wood. Much hornier than before.

More energetic. However motivational wise I would say about the same. But that may be due to other issues. I am still doing a lot of the nutritional stuff. Collagen, Coconut oil,iodine,vitamin D3/K2. All is working well will be done with the 90 days of Chlomid soon.

I still have one stubborn area of concern. I am not a fat person, i am healthy but not trim and fit either. And I still have this stubborn belly fat. Been there for years. I was hoping to see at least some improvement on this but so far it is about the same.

What do you guys think. Is this something that will reduce with time? On a higher testosterone system?

I have been looking into NDT and potential thyroid issues. Still learning. My morning waking temperatures is about 97.4 and my morning pulse is about 68. Not sure if you guys know much about this but thought I would ask.

Seems to be in this area of medicine the same kind of miscommunication and problems with patients not getting results. I do not believe I have a bad thyroid. But possibly a low performing thyroid.

Any thoughts?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Another update on my Clomid and DHEA. Physically i am feeling better. Not through the roof, over the top better. But definitely better. Like I said before, some of that may be work related but not all of it. Plenty of morning wood. Much hornier than before.

More energetic. However motivational wise I would say about the same. But that may be due to other issues. I am still doing a lot of the nutritional stuff. Collagen, Coconut oil,iodine,vitamin D3/K2. All is working well will be done with the 90 days of Chlomid soon.

I still have one stubborn area of concern. I am not a fat person, i am healthy but not trim and fit either. And I still have this stubborn belly fat. Been there for years. I was hoping to see at least some improvement on this but so far it is about the same.

What do you guys think. Is this something that will reduce with time? On a higher testosterone system?

I have been looking into NDT and potential thyroid issues. Still learning. My morning waking temperatures is about 97.4 and my morning pulse is about 68. Not sure if you guys know much about this but thought I would ask.

Seems to be in this area of medicine the same kind of miscommunication and problems with patients not getting results. I do not believe I have a bad thyroid. But possibly a low performing thyroid.

Any thoughts?

Do you have thyroid labs?