Libido and E2

[Logan24]

General question about libido and E2. A few times I have dropped my e2 into the 18 range using .25mg anatrazole once per week. I feel kind of down for 2-3 days after taking it and then feel amazing (great libido and mood) for the next 2 weeks or so. Last time this happened I ran labs and e2 was 18.6 and then after 2 weeks I retested and it was 28 and I felt great. After another week or so and I was back to low libido again. My question is, does this indicate I should manage e2 to the mid 20 range (either by reducing my test dose or with an AI) or is this more likely a temporary result of e2 increasing from a low level and thus not really sustainable?

Not trying to spark a debate over AI usage as I could potentially achieve this e2 range with dose reduction if that is fact worth trying.

Current protocol is 28mg test cyp EOD (98mg/week). No AI for almost 8 weeks. No HCG. Also take levothyroxine and liothyronine. Feel ok on this protocol but just not much libido. Trying to determine if maybe the e2 of 41.5 is just too high for me since I felt great at lower levels albeit temporarily.

These labs were taken just before next scheduled injection a couple of weeks ago.
Total test 1175 (348-1197)
Free t 22.1 (4.7-24.4)
Sensitive e2 41.5 (8-35)
SHBG 52 (10-80) was 70 on previous 2 labs
Free t4 1.2 (.93-1.7)
Free t3 3.2 (2-4.4) was 4.6 on previous labs

I’m 41, 175 lbs at 11-12% body fat. Been dieting for the past few weeks which is why I think my thyroid dropped some and in turn SHBG. Trying to get body fat down to 10% for summer vacation.

 

[RLW]

I really think people get wrapped up too much in the E2 and libido connection. I personally have always found that my libido while it has always been high there's stretches where its really high and then stretches where it's not quite as high. Been this way since before Testosterone and no different after starting Testosterone. I feel like it's entirely possible that a guys levels of everything can be generally the same and libido can vary based on a bunch of other factors. I think too many guys have a slight change for a few days and they start changing things up when they may have just came back around a week or two down the road if they would have just not messed with things.

Just my opinion though, and you got it for free so that's probably about what it's worth.

 

[Logan24]

I don’t disagree at all. However after nearly two years on TRT the only times I’ve had a decent libido is when my e2 was in that 18-30 range after taking an AI. I’ve just never been able to sustain it for more than a couple of weeks at a time. So is it worth trying to manage e2 in that range or was it always a temporary event stemming from dropping e2 too low? Probably no way to know without just experimenting but my hope was there are others that have similar experiences that could provide some guidance.

 

[RLW]

If you went on the AI and your libido came back for good it would be an easy call. But since you take the AI and are good for a couple weeks and then bad again it's hard to say that taking the AI is the solution. If you only need to drop a little maybe try dropping your dose like you mentioned in your earlier post. Curious though, is your libido better, worse, or the same as before TRT?

 

[Cataceous]

Your experience adds to the mountain of anecdotal evidence that varying hormone levels can do something useful. Now whether that effect is a—temporary—change in other hormones or neurotransmitters or both, I don't know. But if we can figure this out then we'll be a lot further along in making TRT more about science and less about trial and error.

 

[Logan24]

If you went on the AI and your libido came back for good it would be an easy call. But since you take the AI and are good for a couple weeks and then bad again it's hard to say that taking the AI is the solution. If you only need to drop a little maybe try dropping your dose like you mentioned in your earlier post. Curious though, is your libido better, worse, or the same as before TRT?

Probably about the same as the year or two prior to TRT. It was great until probably my mid 30’s. Things went down hill after our fourth child was born and I had a vasectomy.

 

[Logan24]

If you went on the AI and your libido came back for good it would be an easy call. But since you take the AI and are good for a couple weeks and then bad again it's hard to say that taking the AI is the solution. If you only need to drop a little maybe try dropping your dose like you mentioned in your earlier post. Curious though, is your libido better, worse, or the same as before TRT?

This is what always has we wondering if I could figure out how

If you went on the AI and your libido came back for good it would be an easy call. But since you take the AI and are good for a couple weeks and then bad again it's hard to say that taking the AI is the solution. If you only need to drop a little maybe try dropping your dose like you mentioned in your earlier post. Curious though, is your libido better, worse, or the same as before TRT?

I’m not sure if the reason it’s not sustainable is that I haven’t found the right dose/frequency to maintain the ideal e2 or if it’s just temporary and the effect would fade regardless...and as Cataceous mentioned that just making any change causes a temporary improvement.

 

[RLW]

I would think if you were about the same before TRT, there's a good chance it's not related to your E2. A common theme here is that TRT does not always solve your particular problem.

I personally have only had one time in my life where I didn't have much libido. I was doing something in my career that was extremely stressful. I knew it was going to be stressful going in so it didn't shock me that I didn't care to have sex for a couple months. I did have sex a couple times a week because my wife was going crazy but I had no desire to do so. If it was different and I was all of the sudden under stress but due to something different, it's possible I wouldn't have recognized it and may have started looking at my protocol or something else.

 

[stx359]

My SHBG and sensitive E2 numbers almost exactly mimic yours and I am also a 40 something with 11% body fat. E2 is just like testosterone, the only one that matters is the free version and with an SHBG like ours you can run a sensitive E2 over 50 and still have a free E2 within normal range. Go off the AI, let your E2 reach its peak value and check your free E2. I bet you it will be dead normal. I agree with poster who said that libido can be anything. I wouldn't get hung up on a lab value.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Don't take anastrozole and see how it goes

High Estradiol Boosts Libido in Men on Testosterone Therapy

 

[Tman]

I don’t disagree at all. However after nearly two years on TRT the only times I’ve had a decent libido is when my e2 was in that 18-30 range after taking an AI. I’ve just never been able to sustain it for more than a couple of weeks at a time. So is it worth trying to manage e2 in that range or was it always a temporary event stemming from dropping e2 too low? Probably no way to know without just experimenting but my hope was there are others that have similar experiences that could provide some guidance.

Based on your post, I think you already know the answer.

 

[Logan24]

2 months ago I switched from an E3.5 protocol to EOD and removed the AI. the labs above reflect that change. After 2 months of just feeling of low libido I decided to try the AI again (.125mg 1x per week). I did notice a slight improvement the first week but after the second dose I saw a big improvement in libido and erection quality. I guess only time will tell if this is sustainable or just temporary from changing a variable. I’m going to stick with .125mg once per week and see how it goes. I know all of the studies show higher e2=better libido so I have no explanation as to why I seem to do better with e2 more in the 20-30 range but I gave it 2 months with e2 at 40+ and just didn’t do well.

 

[Vince Carter]

That's because the statement you made just before this is categorically false when applied to an individual guy. Trying to assign a number on Estrogen is a huge flaw in the discussion.

I have no explanation as to why I seem to do better with e2 more in the 20-30 range but I gave it 2 months with e2 at 40+ and just didn’t do well.

This is not at all true, higher is what? 10? 50? 100? NO ONE KNOWS what that number is; "higher".

I know all of the studies show higher e2=better libido

 

[Logan24]

Sorry I’m sure I worded that statement poorly. I was referring to the study link that Nelson posted “high estrodial boosts libido in men on testosterone replacement therapy.” I’ve read that study and others that suggest this but I completely agree with you that studies are based on averages and not all people fit the average mold. I seem to be one of those people. Based on the previous discussion you and I had I am exploring a lower e2 range to see if it’s more suitable for me.

 

[Appassionato]

Sorry I’m sure I worded that statement poorly. I was referring to the study link that Nelson posted “high estrodial boosts libido in men on testosterone replacement therapy.” I’ve read that study and others that suggest this but I completely agree with you that studies are based on averages and not all people fit the average mold. I seem to be one of those people. Based on the previous discussion you and I had I am exploring a lower e2 range to see if it’s more suitable for me.

If that helps you, I'm following the same pattern as you.
Low E2 or high E2 I have libido almost close to 0. But I know many people claiming they have a better response with higher E2 levels.
Also don't forget that there are many variables out there. No one would expect a crazy high libido after a really stressful day at work or during a stressful exams period at uni.

 

[Logan24]

If that helps you, I'm following the same pattern as you.
Low E2 or high E2 I have libido almost close to 0. But I know many people claiming they have a better response with higher E2 levels.
Also don't forget that there are many variables out there. No one would expect a crazy high libido after a really stressful day at work or during a stressful exams period at uni.

Agreed, I’m 41 with 4 kids and have no expectation of being always-on. I’m trying to avoid prolonged periods of low/no libido.

 

[Appassionato]

Agreed, I’m 41 with 4 kids and have no expectation of being always-on. I’m trying to avoid prolonged periods of low/no libido.

Fair enough, and it's really important for your married life.
Next time I would test prolactin, as we know it raises when T/E2 ratio goes lower, and that's a key player in terms of libido.
I recall seeing a study showing that prolactin goes higher when men are next to pregnant women for a prolonged period of time, as if it is a protective mechanism to "calm down" husbands.

 

[Gman86]

Any update with OP’s libido? There’s another thread here about using a tiny amount of testosterone cream on either the penis or testicles, or both, to increase libido and sensitivity. Might be worth a shot if you are continuing to have issues in either of those departments.

 

[Logan24]

Any update with OP’s libido? There’s another thread here about using a tiny amount of testosterone cream on either the penis or testicles, or both, to increase libido and sensitivity. Might be worth a shot if you are continuing to have issues in either of those departments.

Just last week I switched over to using compounded scrotal cream and using a new clinic where they are trained using Dr. Rouzier’s methods. The plan is to optimize free t (probably in the 30-40 range I was told) and then give it some time and see how things go. I’ll provide updates along the way.

 

[Gman86]

Oh perfect! Lol. Definitely keep us posted. Dr Nichols, and the other doctors that treat primarily with creams, under the guidance of Dr. Rouzier, definitely seem to have things down.

What’s your current protocol, including any DHEA/ pregnenolone etc.? And do you notice any differences yet after a week?