Lab values way too high

[Stryker]

On 210 mg/week injected SQ daily as 0.15 ml. Ordered tests myself through discounted labs because I was feeling moody, erection problems and edema in my lower legs, dropping my protocol to 0.1 ml daily, which works out to 140 mg week. any recommendations as to when I should have follow up labs drawn? Thanks in advance

 

[Vince]

HCT 59.9 yes I would be concerned.

 

[Weasel]

View attachment 18870View attachment 18871View attachment 18872View attachment 18870View attachment 18871View attachment 18872On 210 mg/week injected SQ daily as 0.15 ml. Ordered tests myself through discounted labs because I was feeling moody, erection problems and edema in my lower legs, dropping my protocol to 0.1 ml daily, which works out to 140 mg week. any recommendations as to when I should have follow up labs drawn? Thanks in advance

If I were in your shoes I'd not hesitate to drop to about 80mg total per week. Those numbers are absurd across the board.

 

[DS3]

If I were in your shoes I'd not hesitate to drop to about 80mg total per week. Those numbers are absurd across the board.

Why 80 mg?

 

[Cataceous]

Why 80 mg?

That's actually pretty conservative. If free testosterone is proportional to dose then he could take a quarter of the previous dose, 50-55 mg per week, and still be near top-of-range. The numbers also hint at low SHBG.

 

[DS3]

That's actually pretty conservative. If free testosterone is proportional to dose then he could take a quarter of the previous dose, 50-55 mg per week, and still be near top-of-range. The numbers also hint at low SHBG.

On paper, yes. But would he feel good? We use lab values to ensure that we are not misattributing symptoms or side effects, and to make sure that we do not incur damage to our health. Labs, however, do not tell us how we feel on a protocol.

I am curious to see how many guys actually feel good on very low dose TRT such as 50 mg per week.

 

[Cataceous]

...
I am curious to see how many guys actually feel good on very low dose TRT such as 50 mg per week.

It depends on what's natural for the individual's physiology, along with the extent of side effects caused by TRT. Normal ranges give us a way to at least get in the ballpark of what's likely to be healthy. In the skewed environment of the forums 50 mg per week might be considered "very" low. But in the real world 50 mg is one of only three doses provided by Xyosted. It's also right in the middle of Androgel's recommended dose range of 20-80 mg per day, assuming 10% absorption. I'll concede that in earlier times when injections were limited to every week or two a 50 mg/week protocol would not have been viable. Back then higher dosing was used to keep the troughs from being too low. But now we can inject more often or else use Xyosted, which has double the half-life of standard formulations.

 

[DS3]

It depends on what's natural for the individual's physiology, along with the extent of side effects caused by TRT. Normal ranges give us a way to at least get in the ballpark of what's likely to be healthy. In the skewed environment of the forums 50 mg per week might be considered "very" low. But in the real world 50 mg is one of only three doses provided by Xyosted. It's also right in the middle of Androgel's recommended dose range of 20-80 mg per day, assuming 10% absorption. I'll concede that in earlier times when injections were limited to every week or two a 50 mg/week protocol would not have been viable. Back then higher dosing was used to keep the troughs from being too low. But now we can inject more often or else use Xyosted, which has double the half-life of standard formulations.

There’s no argument that if a low daily can put one in a healthy physiological range of FT. But do the guys that are taking these very low doses actually feel good even with healthy free T levels?

Perhaps the men that must go that low to minimize T side effects are not achieving relief from those side effects because their levels reflect where they would be naturally. Perhaps these guys feel better because they do not respond well to TRT, and keeping doses at an absolute minimum is their only option.

I do not know this to be true, but it is a thought.

For me, the low dose route of 70 mg per week did not make me feel well. But as we have discussed, high doses do not make me feel well either.

 

[Vince]

Keep It Up: The Power of Precision Medicine to Conquer Low T and Revitalize Your Life! Hardcover October 8, 2013 by Florence Comite - I read this book a couple of years ago and thought it was really good. I read the kindle version. She talks about men feeling their best, when having their testosterone levels, at the levels they were, when they were young. She believes young men should have their levels tested, so when they get older they know what to shoot for.

 

[DS3]

Keep It Up: The Power of Precision Medicine to Conquer Low T and Revitalize Your Life! Hardcover October 8, 2013 by Florence Comite - I read this book a couple of years ago and thought it was really good. I read the kindle version. She talks about men feeling their best, when having their testosterone levels, at the levels they were, when they were young. She believes young men should have their levels tested, so when they get older they know what to shoot for.

@Vince I think you are a perfect example to illustrate. If I am not mistaken, I believe your protocol is 16 mg T daily with 500 iu HCG twice weekly. Given your dosage, one would expect your free T to be over the reference range (depending on SHBG), yet this is where you’ve stated you feel your best. Correct?

Have you tried a lower dose? If so, how did you feel in comparison?

 

[Vince]

@Vince I think you are a perfect example to illustrate. If I am not mistaken, I believe your protocol is 16 mg T daily with 500 iu HCG twice weekly. Given your dosage, one would expect your free T to be over the reference range (depending on SHBG), yet this is where you’ve stated you feel your best. Correct?

Have you tried a lower dose? If so, how did you feel in comparison?

These are my latest labs. I've never used an AI.

Testosterone, Serum 1319 ng/dL range 264-916
Free Testosterone 47.9 ng/dL range 5.00-21.00
% Free Testosterone 3.57 range 1.50-4.20
DHEA-Sulfate 449.0 H ug/dL range 30.9-295.6 (age adjusted)
Estradiol, Sensitive 24.0 pg/mL range 8.0-35.0
Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 48.2 nmol/L range 19.3-76.4

I always push for higher testosterone levels. Because that's when I feel my best. As long as my other labs are good, like HCT and cholesterol panel.

About 2 years after I started trt my HCT stabilized and now for over 4 years I've never had to donate blood.

 

[Stryker]

I appreciate the discussions about dosing and after a few conversations with my doctor I am lowering my dose to 0.15 ml every 2 days, however I’m going to ask my original question again; those of you with experience in seeing changing lab levels, how long should I wait to retest? Thanks again

 

[DS3]

I appreciate the discussions about dosing and after a few conversations with my doctor I am lowering my dose to 0.15 ml every 2 days, however I’m going to ask my original question again; those of you with experience in seeing changing lab levels, how long should I wait to retest? Thanks again

5-6 times the ester’s half-life would be the length of time required for blood levels to stabilize on a new protocol if the ester is either cypionate or enanthate. 6 weeks is the typical length to wait.

 

[Vince]

5-6 times the ester’s half-life would be the length of time required for blood levels to stabilize on a new protocol of the ester issue cypionate or enanthate. 6 weeks is the typical length to wait.

I agree with the 6 weeks, but I always wait at least 12. That's how long it usually takes me to feel the difference between protocols.

 

[Cataceous]

It's a pretty significant drop in the dose, so there's a chance of feeling bad for some time. It would be good to give it at least 12 weeks before evaluating how you feel at the new level. I like to cite @Blackhawk as an example of a tough dose reduction: "I too started at too high a dose when starting injections, 150mg/week dosed E3D. It was living Hell having to reduce dose and go through withdrawal getting it right from there over the course of many months. In retrospect if I was to do it again, I would have started on about 80mg/week dosed every 2 or 3 days, and if inadequate boost 2mg EOD at 6-8 week intervals with labs at each stage until I felt good."

 

[Match]

I do not understand why TRT in this dosage, considering high TT, high FT, high E, especially high HCT.
The more, the better?
It doesn't seem to be

 

[madman]

View attachment 18870View attachment 18871View attachment 18872View attachment 18870View attachment 18871View attachment 18872On 210 mg/week injected SQ daily as 0.15 ml. Ordered tests myself through discounted labs because I was feeling moody, erection problems and edema in my lower legs, dropping my protocol to 0.1 ml daily, which works out to 140 mg week. any recommendations as to when I should have follow up labs drawn? Thanks in advance

Whether starting trt or tweaking a protocol 200 mg T/week is a whopping dose and would have most men's FT level through the roof.

A common side-effect of using exogenous testosterone is elevated hemoglobin/hematocrit/RBCs.

The higher you drive up your FT level the bigger the impact.

Let alone running too high an FT level can result in side effects.

210mg T/week is a whopping dose even when split into daily injections 30 mg T.

As you can clearly see from the labs you posted that your TT, FT, estradiol let alone blood markers hemo/hemato/RBCs are off the charts!

Definitely need to donate blood and lower your weekly T dose.

Smart move dropping your dose from a whopping 210 mg/week (split 30 mg daily)--->140mg/week (split 20 mg daily).

I would stick to your plan as although you easily have room to decrease it further I would wait to see where your trough TT, FT, estradiol sit as you are already making a significant drop of 70 mg T/week (210-140) and because of the drastic dose reduction you may very well be in for a bumpy ride during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks).

Coming down is always much harder than going up.


post #4

Is TRT dangerous?

Just met with a local highly regarded endocrinologist because I wanted his take on my TRT situation. Been on TRT for 6 months and have had elevated hematocrit (54-55%) and hemoglobin (18’s) the whole time. He said what I’m doing (TRT) is dangerous and I’m at higher risk for heart attack and...

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