Is HCG necessary on testosterone replacement ?

[JQ88]

Hey guys,

I've been struggling to find a protocol that works for me.

Trying to dose Adex with hcG is like hitting a moving target for me. It fluctuates so much.

For example, my best labs came back 60/250/.25 (2x/wk) on the day of injection TT was 550 and E2 was 21.

Two or three days after injection I would feel great. But that first 24 hours was tortuous. Tremendous e2 spike from Hcg. It really would be terrible.

Adex doesn't account for that and labs don't tell the story. The e2 spike from HcG is strong.

So before I adopt a protocol and stick to it for a while and get labs and adjust my question is this:

IS HCG NECESSARY ON TRT???

It is quite remarkable the difference of opinion on this matter.

I don't care about ball size and I don't care about Fertility.

I guess Pregnenolone and well-being would be my concerns.

IS HCG NECESSARY ON A TRT PROTOCOL?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

HCG is not necessary with TRT. If you really are not concerned about fertility and testicle size, then I would not use it unless your libido is low.

 

[JQ88]

Thx Nelson.

I am not concerned with ball size or fertility. Libido is fine as long as T:E ratio is good.

Pregnenolone levels always seem to come back low.

I've tried life flo preg cream.

Leading to another question, how important is pregnenolone while on TRT?

Since HCG would surely increase preg.

 

[Vince Carter]

That first 24hrs you're coming out of that low point, the trough, reason you feel good days two and three. Maybe you consider E3D for injections, that may smooth out your peaks and valleys if you're indeed not feeling well.
Without HCG you should aware that there can be pain associated with the shrunken nuts. I really don't see the point in inducing organ failure and you're aware there are other things like Preg, which is the "Mother" (not female!) hormone, many others are derived from Preg. Maybe you consider 200iu 2XW, or 100iu 2XW. I understand the feeling of an E2 related complication and/or the the perceived feeling that HCG does nothing for you. I'm the same way. Me I simply don't want my nuts dead, shrunken, or painful.

I would suggest dropping be an informed decision.

 

[JQ88]

Thx Vince. It's a tough call.

It does have benefits but creates complications as well.

There are many many men that do just fine without it.

And then there are others that swear by it, and say it is absolutely necessary.

Like you said it's individualistic.

Ultimately I'm going to have to make this hcG decision on my own. Just want to hear as much feedback as possible so I can indeed make an informed decision.

I'd be curious to hear from anybody on trt without HCG.

How do you feel? Preg levels? Adrenals?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Some men who take pregnenolone have increases in progesterone and tend to feel too relaxed and tired. How did you feel on it?


Dr Crisler believes in "Back filling" the hormonal pathways with preg and DHEA. I took preg but felt too bloated on it.

http://www.excelmale.com/tags.php?tag=pregnenolone

 

[JQ88]

I too noticed bloat similar to HCG.

One positive interestingly enough was that I definitely slept better while taking a little preg cream before bedtime. That could account for the "relaxed and tired" like you say.

I would say maybe try it at night.

A little background.

About 15 months ago I was taking too much T. Anastrozole fixed the problem. And ever since then I've been on an Anastrozole/HCG roller coaster.

I have since dropped my T dose but yet to drop AI or HCG. I have e2 fear now, especially when I don't wake up with morning wood.

i was in South America for six weeks without HCG.

I was taking 80/80 and .25 every other day. It was still too much AI.

70/.25 (2x/wk) with a little preg cream felt good but it was still too much AI. also my balls were still working a little.

I know I'm all over the place just want to feel normal again while still gaining strength in the gym.

My workouts have been great. Sexual function hit or miss. When I'm dialed in its fantastic. But it's short lived.

I'm always checking in with myself.

It gets frustrating.

I feel like I'm still making the same mistakes.

Just looking for advice.

The Internet is not always great because opinions differ so much.

Anastrozole had caused most of my problems, I'm convinced of that.

 

[JQ88]

So now I just want to adopt a protocol, stick with it for a month and get labs.

But I don't know whether or not to include HCG in that protocol.

 

[ERO]

Adopt a protocol, go 4-6 weeks without HCG and get blood tests & evaluate how you feel. Then if you want, go 4-6 weeks on the same protocol, except with HCG this time and test again. See if you feel a difference. Remember you can only accurately test one variable at a time so keep everything the same except for adding HCG on the second round.

 

[JQ88]

Thanks Ero,

What would be your Reccommendation for an initial protocol??

 

[ERO]

There are a few guys here that take 60mg of T every 3.5 days (Example would be Monday morning and Thursday evening) and no AI, and they speak very highly of how they feel on that regimen so that sounds like a good starting point. You could also do 50mg every 3.5 days to start and only go to 60mg every 3.5 days after your first blood work if needed. The best advice I would offer is to stick to whatever protocol you choose for at least 4-6 weeks and then test before changing it up. I am impatient myself, so I can totally relate to the desire to change if you don't feel anything after the first couple weeks, but it really does take 4-6 weeks for your body to adjust to a new protocol to the point where you can reliably test and to feel how it is working.

 

[JQ88]

I really appreciate it man.

I was doing 60mg of T every 3.5 days and taking .25mg of Adex once every five days and my strength was actually up while I was away in July.

That was going well, and even though it was TOO MUCH AI; when I woke up without morning wood on day 4 one week... I popped .25 Adex (since the Internet seems to judge Adex dosing by "feel" and morning wood).

I got my erection back, but within 24 hours I was too low feeling like shit again. I've been too high with my e2 and too low with my e2. They both suck. Dialing it in has been really tough for me. I feel like I could be low when I go to sleep and wake up high.

But you're so right, it takes time for the body to adjust.

I'm not going to make the same mistake this time. No matter how I feel I will stick to a protocol and report back with lab results.

Really want to thank this forum for steering me in the right direction.

I've been all over the place, and maybe I've found a home.

 

[ERO]

I should have also mentioned that with the every 3.5 day protocol of 50 to 60mg of Test, guys typically don't need ANY AI, so while everybody is different, that should help reassure you that your are likely to be fine with no AI as well on that protocol.

 

[JQ88]

Thanku guys for all of your responses.

The ED is obviously the most frustrating part... And not knowing what's causing it.

If I decide to drop Adex do you guys think that I should taper off it or drop it cold turkey?

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Vince Carter]

I think you've asked and been answered ad naseum, you're rather indecisive any way you slice the subject. You can't decide on HCG, you can't decide on Anastrozole, to what end are all the questions for you?

 

[Vince]

JQ if you're having a hard time with hcg spiking your e2, you could try dropping the hcg and the AI. But then your testosterone may be too low, so you may have to increase your testosterone cypionate or try a lower dose of hcg.

 

[JQ88]

You guys are so right.

I'm just gonna make a decision (T+AI+HCG) and stick with it regardless of how I feel.

I'll report back with results.

Thankyou.

 

[Gene Devine]

I don't get it; yes, in high doses HCG can aroamatase in some men but estrogen doesn't spike in 24 hours after an injection. Aroamatase synthesis is a slow process and takes some time for estrogen serum levels to elevate.

Something else is gong on I believe...

 

[JQ88]

Gene,

If you don't mind me asking, what protocol do you follow?

 

[Gene Devine]

Gene,

If you don't mind me asking, what protocol do you follow?

Monday AM: 80 mg Test Cyp
Monday PM: 500 units Sermorelin and 250 units HCG

Wednesday PM: 500 units Sermorelin and 250 units HCG

Thursday PM: 80 mg Test Cyp

Friday PM: 500 units Sermorelin and 250 units HCG