Irritable and anxiety between doses

[rhino5169]

Correct, injections plus transdermal - as per doctors at defy.
This is a universal no no?

 

[ScottM]

We don't do it here at Telthera, that said there is no such thing as a universal no no, and the docs at Defy are well respected. There is likely a reason they're giving this therapy a shot, no pun intended. Without knowing your history, complete labs, etc. no one here can offer any real "insight". Talk to your doc about your concerns.

Based on what you've given us so far it could be a lot of things. Namely DHEA has been shown to be an anxiety inducer. You're on fairly typical dose of anastrazole, but typically we prescribe EOD, not 5+ 2- with your injection schedule, but again do not know you or your case. Depending on when you're using the topical you could have a valley or trough somewhere too. Again, labs labs labs.

-Scott
Telthera

Correct, injections plus transdermal - as per doctors at defy.
This is a universal no no?

 

[Vince Carter]

I use inj plus cream but the cream is for DHT (applied to scrotum), Dr Saya. OP hasn't divulged why he's using cream, like Ive been alluding to all thru this thread is so devoid of details, labs, and false information that I really don't see what the point of it is (this thread).

 

[rhino5169]

I use inj plus cream but the cream is for DHT (applied to scrotum), Dr Saya. OP hasn't divulged why he's using cream, like Ive been alluding to all thru this thread is so devoid of details, labs, and false information that I really don't see what the point of it is (this thread).

Likewise.
If you have nothing constructive to add instead of bashing me you can just stay out of it.

 

[rhino5169]

We don't do it here at Telthera, that said there is no such thing as a universal no no, and the docs at Defy are well respected. There is likely a reason they're giving this therapy a shot, no pun intended. Without knowing your history, complete labs, etc. no one here can offer any real "insight". Talk to your doc about your concerns.

Based on what you've given us so far it could be a lot of things. Namely DHEA has been shown to be an anxiety inducer. You're on fairly typical dose of anastrazole, but typically we prescribe EOD, not 5+ 2- with your injection schedule, but again do not know you or your case. Depending on when you're using the topical you could have a valley or trough somewhere too. Again, labs labs labs.

-Scott
Telthera

Scott,
Im on cream for raising dht.

That said, thank you for your unbiased opinions and information.
I value your posts.

 

[Gene Devine]

Likewise.
If you have nothing constructive to add instead of bashing me you can just stay out of it.

First and foremost, Vince is not "bashing" you. He makes an extremely valid point; your original post is void of a lot of details about your case for any knowledgable member to provide you with a response that could be helpful to you (ScottM makes the same point as I did as the first responder to your thread)...that's all.

He's right about the use of a injectable testosterone and you posting that you use a transdermal concurrently without getting into the details of the transdermal and why you are being prescribed it when injections are more then sufficient to raise serum levels.

Vince has been a huge and helpful resource to many men on this forum almost since we launched it years ago; don't take his response as being mean spirited...it's not.

 

[Gene Devine]

We don't do it here at Telthera, that said there is no such thing as a universal no no, and the docs at Defy are well respected. There is likely a reason they're giving this therapy a shot, no pun intended. Without knowing your history, complete labs, etc. no one here can offer any real "insight". Talk to your doc about your concerns.

Based on what you've given us so far it could be a lot of things. Namely DHEA has been shown to be an anxiety inducer. You're on fairly typical dose of anastrazole, but typically we prescribe EOD, not 5+ 2- with your injection schedule, but again do not know you or your case. Depending on when you're using the topical you could have a valley or trough somewhere too. Again, labs labs labs.

-Scott
Telthera

There are many universal No No's in all of medicine...like prescribing 1 mg of an AI daily based on the standard default E2 lab or 400 mg of Test Cyp injected every two weeks...LOL

 

[rhino5169]

First and foremost, Vince is not "bashing" you. He makes an extremely valid point; your original post is void of a lot of details about your case for any knowledgable member to provide you with a response that could be helpful to you (ScottM makes the same point as I did as the first responder to your thread)...that's all.

He's right about the use of a injectable testosterone and you posting that you use a transdermal concurrently without getting into the details of the transdermal and why you are being prescribed it when injections are more then sufficient to raise serum levels.

Vince has been a huge and helpful resource to many men on this forum almost since we launched it years ago; don't take his response as being mean spirited...it's not.

Noted, but on the other side of the coin I wasnt looking for definitive, lab calculated responses as I said I didnt have labwork in yet.
As I also said I was only looking to hear if anyone had similar experience because I wanted to hear THEIR experience, not just going off my lab numbers.
I stated that first and foremost in my first post.

That said, I agree that VC is a valuable member here, just thought he was attacking me when it wasnt warranted is all.

Apologies to VC.

BTW, thanks Gene, appreciate your input also.

 

[SoCalSurfer]

Rhino, I didnt see in the thread how long have you been on TRT?
You also have "Also on anastrozole .125 m-f" is that correct or is it .25mg 3 times a week or 5 times a week? .25mg is twice as strong as .125mg. anastrozole is some strong stuff. you might be taking too much.

Was you estradiol test the sensitive test? if not that numbers not going to help too much.

I take .5ml of 200mg/ml test twice a week and no anastrozole. I have it and I can actually tell when my E is getting high because I become very sensitive about BS. that is when I take .125 anastrozole and that helps.

Your anxiety about the upcoming dose could be mental and not physical at all. Those of us who have been on TRT for years can, for the most part, feel how our bodies are doing and whats going on. we still rely on hard data from the labs.

If you're just starting out there is a learning curve.

 

[Will Brink]

We don't do it here at Telthera, that said there is no such thing as a universal no no, and the docs at Defy are well respected. There is likely a reason they're giving this therapy a shot, no pun intended. Without knowing your history, complete labs, etc. no one here can offer any real "insight". Talk to your doc about your concerns.

Based on what you've given us so far it could be a lot of things. Namely DHEA has been shown to be an anxiety inducer. You're on fairly typical dose of anastrazole, but typically we prescribe EOD, not 5+ 2- with your injection schedule, but again do not know you or your case. Depending on when you're using the topical you could have a valley or trough somewhere too. Again, labs labs labs.

-Scott
Telthera

I have not seen published studies DHEA to have that effect and studies tend to find higher natural DHEA levels associated with better mood. In women it's especially effective as a supplement for depression and mood. Low DHEA levels are associated with poor mood and there's a good collection of studies that support that as well as direct intervention studies:

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/208294

 

[Will Brink]

Likewise.
If you have nothing constructive to add instead of bashing me you can just stay out of it.

Bashing you? Re read what he said and check defensiveness at the door. He's added useful comments to your Qs all along. That you don't like the answers does not = bashing you.

 

[rhino5169]

Rhino, I didnt see in the thread how long have you been on TRT?
You also have "Also on anastrozole .125 m-f" is that correct or is it .25mg 3 times a week or 5 times a week? .25mg is twice as strong as .125mg. anastrozole is some strong stuff. you might be taking too much.

Was you estradiol test the sensitive test? if not that numbers not going to help too much.

I take .5ml of 200mg/ml test twice a week and no anastrozole. I have it and I can actually tell when my E is getting high because I become very sensitive about BS. that is when I take .125 anastrozole and that helps.

Your anxiety about the upcoming dose could be mental and not physical at all. Those of us who have been on TRT for years can, for the most part, feel how our bodies are doing and whats going on. we still rely on hard data from the labs.

If you're just starting out there is a learning curve.

Started TRT 6.5 months ago.
Yes estradiol was sensitive test and im taking .125 m/t/w/t/f, no weekends. this is where we started about 5 weeks ago with the anastrozole.

I dont have anxiety about the upcoming dose, taking the dose is no big deal. My anxiety / irritability is just with things in general. Little things that annoy the crap out of me. Things that shouldnt bother me I find im thinking about them way too much instead of letting things go. Stuff like that.

 

[ScottM]

DHEA has not been as well studied in men. How it affects some people isn't how it affects all. While you might have great anti-anxiety reducing results, someone else may experience elevated anxiety. This could be due to a number of factors or underlying conditions which are known or not known (genetic, diagnosed, etc). My personal experience with dhea supplementation is that I do not tolerate it well, and I know a handful of others who get anxiety and the sweats when they take dhea too.

Per Mayo Clinic:

"Use cautiously in people who have anxiety, depression, muscle or joint pain, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), or sleep disorders. Use cautiously in people taking weight loss agents."

"DHEA may also cause side effects such as abnormal menstruation, acute respiratory failure (a lack of oxygen in blood), altered cholesterol, anxiety, blocked blood flow to the brain, blood in the urine, changes in abnormal heart rhythms, changes in adrenal or thyroid hormones, changes in blood vessel width, changes in insulin, chest pain, cough, crawling sensation of the scalp, depressive symptoms, diarrhea, dizziness, elevated liver enzymes and creatine concentration, emotional change, eye problems (dryness or pain), fatigue, headache, heart palpitations, high blood pressure, increased discharge, increased dreaming, increased risk of cataract, insomnia, irritability, joint and muscle pain, labor induction, lack of energy, mania, mood changes, nasal congestion, nausea, nervousness, night sweats, psychiatric problems, restlessness, skin allergic reactions (bumps under the skin, greasy hair and skin, itching, rashes, spots, and wart-like growths), sleep problems, streptococcal infection, upset stomach, and weight gain."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/dhea/safety/hrb-20059173

To comment specifically on the data you provided, the study focuses primarily on depression which is a bit different than anxiety. The scale they use to determine effectiveness is the standard HDRS (Hamilton Depression Rating Scale). Only a very small portion of that questionnaire deals with mental anxiety. So an increase in HDRS doesn't necessarily mean anxiety improved or even stayed the same. I tried to find the actual results from the questionnaire to do an apples to apples, but it wasn't published.

-Scott
-Telthera

I have not seen published studies DHEA to have that effect and studies tend to find higher natural DHEA levels associated with better mood. In women it's especially effective as a supplement for depression and mood. Low DHEA levels are associated with poor mood and there's a good collection of studies that support that as well as direct intervention studies:

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/208294

 

[ScottM]

lol if the standard E2 lab wasn't changing despite a gradual increase in AI, theoretically you could prescribe 1mg AI daily and justify it. My point is that each case is different and often providers have a case or two where they have to "prescribe outside the box" if you will. So it's not really fair to judge his physician based on what he wrote him for without knowing all the details.

And I am saying that out of honesty, trust me, I would much rather be like yea that's a universal no no, how could he do that? Come see us at Telthera we'd never do that to you! But the fact is there might be a case where we would, so it's not fair to judge.

-Scott
-Telthera

There are many universal No No's in all of medicine...like prescribing 1 mg of an AI daily based on the standard default E2 lab or 400 mg of Test Cyp injected every two weeks...LOL

 

[Vince Carter]

Anxiety as it presents itself on this forum becomes a barrier and is more prevalent on EM than most are willing to admit too. I think it needs to be one of those things that get's broached when there's no other apparent reason for what is troubling a guy. Just like low T, anxiety is a health issue that needs attention but may not be in the scope of EM other than to ask if it's a problem, diagnosed or not.

 

[James]

Vince Carter- You are a wordsmith.

 

[Will Brink]

DHEA has not been as well studied in men. How it affects some people isn't how it affects all. While you might have great anti-anxiety reducing results, someone else may experience elevated anxiety. This could be due to a number of factors or underlying conditions which are known or not known (genetic, diagnosed, etc). My personal experience with dhea supplementation is that I do not tolerate it well, and I know a handful of others who get anxiety and the sweats when they take dhea too.

Per Mayo Clinic:

"Use cautiously in people who have anxiety, depression, muscle or joint pain, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), or sleep disorders. Use cautiously in people taking weight loss agents."

"DHEA may also cause side effects such as abnormal menstruation, acute respiratory failure (a lack of oxygen in blood), altered cholesterol, anxiety, blocked blood flow to the brain, blood in the urine, changes in abnormal heart rhythms, changes in adrenal or thyroid hormones, changes in blood vessel width, changes in insulin, chest pain, cough, crawling sensation of the scalp, depressive symptoms, diarrhea, dizziness, elevated liver enzymes and creatine concentration, emotional change, eye problems (dryness or pain), fatigue, headache, heart palpitations, high blood pressure, increased discharge, increased dreaming, increased risk of cataract, insomnia, irritability, joint and muscle pain, labor induction, lack of energy, mania, mood changes, nasal congestion, nausea, nervousness, night sweats, psychiatric problems, restlessness, skin allergic reactions (bumps under the skin, greasy hair and skin, itching, rashes, spots, and wart-like growths), sleep problems, streptococcal infection, upset stomach, and weight gain."

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/dhea/safety/hrb-20059173

The stuff in bold is LOL worthy.

Per the Mayo on T:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-sup...intramuscular-route/side-effects/drg-20095183

That's quite a list, most of it nonsense just at that list above for DHEA. Again, the data suggest benefits of DHEA on mood, etc. The only mechanism that makes some sense that it could increase anxiety might be in those with low cortisol getting even lower with DHEA being it lowers cortisol which is good thing for most, but not all.

My major point here is your comment "Namely DHEA has been shown to be an anxiety inducer" and that is simply false and gives people the wrong impression of the data on DHEA, and some anecdotal n = 1 reports don't change that nor trump that and people tend to be easily swayed by such declarative statements as fact when it's not.

What we have is a large number of correlational research that associates various benefits to healthy DHEA levels, and some direct intervention studies (one I posted but there's more) suggesting benefits, and not a single study that finds a negative impact on mood, anxiety, depression, etc but some anecdotal l reports here it may increase anxiety.

If some feel they don't react well to DHEA then I agree they may not want to use it, but it's far from being established in any way "...shown to be an anxiety inducer"

 

[lowe2sucks]

^I hyave to disagree there been reports of mania associated with dhea use.. I myself did notice hypomanic symptoms after taking dhea... for some people it's real imo dhea should be taken more seriously in trt

 

[James]

My decision to introduce DHEA into my protocol was probably the worst decision I've made in the almost 3 1/2 years I've been taking cypionate. I had horrible anxiety while on DHEA. Started with 25mg, then 12.5, followed by 6...and finally gave it up. Shortly after, my anxiety decreased and I got my erections back. The only advantage was it seemed to help with sleep. Several others (including a few on this thread) reported similar results after taking DHEA. My levels are pretty low, but I feel better without it.

 

[ScottM]

I think you are missing a key point, everything said about DHEA (and T for that matter) side effects is true in some individuals. If it happens the patients, as stated on Mayo and on this forum ad nauseum, should consult with their physician. Just because I or anyone else (Mayo) says "has been shown to" doesn't mean that is the norm, it means just what is said, it has been shown to be correlated to those symptoms and needs to be discussed with this man's physician if he is both having the symptoms and taking DHEA, as it could (as in has been shown to in the past) be a contributing factor that warrants a change in protocol or at least a rule out/rule in assessment.

I stand by my statement and my recommendation to examine DHEA use in patients with new onset anxiety. If this man were under my care I would certainly consider a recommendation to halt DHEA use until it is determined to not be a contributing factor.

Also, as cool as it would be, I seriously doubt that the Mayo Clinic added those reported adverse events and side effects to their listing based solely on anecdotal evidence they found browsing this forum. So for you to attempt to discredit my statement by saying "it hasn't been established in any way" when I present a clear and respected source is neither accurate nor fair.

Thanks,
Scott
Telthera

The stuff in bold is LOL worthy.

Per the Mayo on T:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-sup...intramuscular-route/side-effects/drg-20095183

That's quite a list, most of it nonsense just at that list above for DHEA. Again, the data suggest benefits of DHEA on mood, etc. The only mechanism that makes some sense that it could increase anxiety might be in those with low cortisol getting even lower with DHEA being it lowers cortisol which is good thing for most, but not all.

My major point here is your comment "Namely DHEA has been shown to be an anxiety inducer" and that is simply false and gives people the wrong impression of the data on DHEA, and some anecdotal n = 1 reports don't change that nor trump that and people tend to be easily swayed by such declarative statements as fact when it's not.

What we have is a large number of correlational research that associates various benefits to healthy DHEA levels, and some direct intervention studies (one I posted but there's more) suggesting benefits, and not a single study that finds a negative impact on mood, anxiety, depression, etc but some anecdotal l reports here it may increase anxiety.

If some feel they don't react well to DHEA then I agree they may not want to use it, but it's far from being established in any way "...shown to be an anxiety inducer"