How Long to Feel Better Off AI??

[anestizzle]

I was looking for the experiences of guys that have successfully gotten off of an AI. How long did it take to feel better? The anti-AI crowd swear with 100% certainty that your body “just needs to adjust”. Some say a couple weeks and some say a month or so. I have never been able to successfully come off of a small dose of anastrozole (0.3-0.5mg/week) without experiencing anorgasmia and loss of erections. My last attempt was for 3 weeks and I couldn’t even have sex anymore due progressively worse ED which is usually not an issue. I’ve been on TRT for 1.5 yrs and I’ve tried most of the common protocols out there Test C daily, EOD, twice weekly, etc with/without HCG. The best I’ve felt so far is combining daily scrotal cream of 100mg with EOD injections of Test C 40mg. I recently reintroduced HCG 250 IU 3x/week and started feel better but now not so much. Decreased sensitivity and delayed orgasm has been a constant issue since starting TRT.

Last Prolactin was 14 (4-23), DHT 73 (30-85), TT 1100, FT 31, E2 sensitive 23 (3-70), SHBG 32. Thyroid panel has all been normal.

I would rather not be on an AI if possible but I’m not opposed to it either. It’s just been very difficult dialing in the proper amount. It seems like some guys get off an AI and magically feel better in a week or two and that hasn’t been my case. Any advice or suggestions are welcomed. Thanks.

 

[Cataceous]

... It seems like some guys get off an AI and magically feel better in a week or two and that hasn’t been my case. ...

Even if the stories are completely true, you are not a clone of these guys. You need to do what works for you, and nobody has come close to demonstrating that having high estradiol is any safer than taking small doses of anastrozole. As long as your lipids and bone density are good, don't sweat the AI.

 

[Systemlord]

It took me days to start feeling good after knocking estrogen down to 12, but everyone is different. I've seen some take days, weeks, others months and more rare men have seen chronically low estrogen indefinitely.

 

[Vince Carter]

Remember too that that E2 @ 23 is just your low point, (assuming those are trough numbers) you have a peak, and a trough, and 23, IMHO, isn't low enough to really cause any one any real problems. E follows T from your injection, as T rises so will E.

I have never been able to successfully come off of a small dose of anastrozole (0.3-0.5mg/week) without experiencing anorgasmia and loss of erections.

you mention too a loss of sensitivity, all of those things I experience when my E is: elevated.

 

[anestizzle]

They are 100% true. I speak from my own experience of 4-5 years. NOTHING in this game of TRT is absolute, non-disputed science. Everyone needs to assess their own risk tolerance and be a big boy. For me that means listening to the studies we DO have interpreted by leading doctors in this field. The evidence overwhelmingly "indicated" that e2 left to it's own conversion when administering exogenous test provides the best health. That's was enough for me to give it a go and wait out symptoms. So glad I did. I'm fully aware we may find out something that completely contradicts all of this later.

You've got guys blasting all kinds of androgens for months and then cruise on 250/wk or something the rest of the time. My risk tolerance isn't THAT high. I do recognize the fact these people should all be 6ft under if the alarmists are correct. They are simply wrong. Without a pre-existing condition, good look getting yourself hospitalized on HUGE doses of test.

It sure as hell has me feeling my best MORE CONSISTENTLY than any protocol with an AI. I've tried probably more than a dozen protocols, all on injections.

So how long did it take for you to feel better off of the AI? What symptoms did you have if any?

 

[Cataceous]

... For me that means listening to the studies we DO have interpreted by leading doctors in this field. The evidence overwhelmingly "indicated" that e2 left to it's own conversion when administering exogenous test provides the best health. ...

Sounds to me like argument from authority. If the studies clearly support the claims then they should should be cited directly. But they don't, because there are not long-term studies showing that supraphysiological levels of estradiol provide the "best health" for men.

I've noted before that many men on fairly reasonable doses of testosterone "naturally" achieve estradiol levels into the 60s, 70s and 80s pg/mL. These are so many standard deviations above the mean that even in the entire population of the planet you would not expect to find many normal men at these levels. To claim this must be healthy is highly suspect, at best.

 

[Cataceous]

Well if I owed you something maybe I’d put together a post with citations. ...

Well if we get to use studies with dubious applicability then...

Men with high estrogen—sounds a little like... transgender women. And look out, Trans women on hormones have higher heart health risk, study finds

Interestingly, "Transgender men on hormone therapy, however, were not found to have a higher risk."

But no, I'm not claiming this study is strong evidence that high estrogen in men is dangerous.

... there’s no absolute proof to ever end the debate.

Yes.

 

[Cataceous]

yet you decided to debate...

You said it yourself: The debate can't end. So it doesn't.

 

[MYTVC15]

If you're not having signs/symptoms of gyno, should you take an AI just because your E2 is high is my question.

 

[Cataceous]

If you're not getting gyno, should you take an AI just because your E2 is high is my question.

There are other possible symptoms that are more common, including excess emotionalism and degradation of sexual function. If there are no symptoms then the general consensus is to skip the AI. However, I personally might say that some level of estradiol is beyond my comfort zone, e.g. 60 to 70 pg/mL, because it's in such uncharted territory with regard to long-term risk.

 

[Jman]

I was looking for the experiences of guys that have successfully gotten off of an AI. How long did it take to feel better? The anti-AI crowd swear with 100% certainty that your body “just needs to adjust”. Some say a couple weeks and some say a month or so. I have never been able to successfully come off of a small dose of anastrozole (0.3-0.5mg/week) without experiencing anorgasmia and loss of erections. My last attempt was for 3 weeks and I couldn’t even have sex anymore due progressively worse ED which is usually not an issue. I’ve been on TRT for 1.5 yrs and I’ve tried most of the common protocols out there Test C daily, EOD, twice weekly, etc with/without HCG. The best I’ve felt so far is combining daily scrotal cream of 100mg with EOD injections of Test C 40mg. I recently reintroduced HCG 250 IU 3x/week and started feel better but now not so much. Decreased sensitivity and delayed orgasm has been a constant issue since starting TRT.

Last Prolactin was 14 (4-23), DHT 73 (30-85), TT 1100, FT 31, E2 sensitive 23 (3-70), SHBG 32. Thyroid panel has all been normal.

I would rather not be on an AI if possible but I’m not opposed to it either. It’s just been very difficult dialing in the proper amount. It seems like some guys get off an AI and magically feel better in a week or two and that hasn’t been my case. Any advice or suggestions are welcomed. Thanks.

Took me along time to realize that the AI anastrozole was too difficult to dial in the right dosage. So what I did was wean off but I do my injections every other day. So my T is constant, the E conversion is constant and no more huge mood swings.
You might want to lower your T injections and go EOD without AI. Does well for me. I’ll still use viagra but my libido is always through the roof. Lol. Good luck.

 

[Joey786]

I’ve tried trt with and without Arimidex and I can say that both protocols have benefits. With Arimidex I was the leanest I’ve been in my life. I had lots of energy too. The downside was I couldn’t get it up at all and my libido was non existent. When I dropped the Arimidex, I gained water and some fat, strength increased, and my libido/ erections were excellent. I believe the T to E ratio is what matters. Ive had very high e2 levels and my libido and erections have been great. I don’t think guys on trt really need to worry about e2. The only time e2 gave me a problem was on supraphysiological doses on test. Even on those high doses though my sex drive was good but the water retention was really uncomfortable.

 

[Jon H]

The "AI vs. no AI" debate is the topic that just keeps on giving (seemingly forever), with strong opinions on both sides and so many thinking they're the ones who are right because they feel better on their particular protocol of choice.

That being said, I'll add to the debate. I've tried low AI, and no AI; trying to dial in or reduce my test dose to fit a no-AI protocol. Without a doubt, not using an AI doesn't work for me....ever. I turn into a moody, acne-covered, oily, depressed mess of a man that can't get an erection to save his life, and with super high levels of anxiety. I feel the best on a very generous dose of testosterone, with a moderate amount of AI that puts my E somewhere between 18 and 30. Anywhere above that and very negative things start to happen.

I'm actually to the point where I hate posting on this particular topic, but I feel that if I don't there will be men on the forum thinking that "no AI" must be the answer, because not many people on the forum are disagreeing with it.

 

[anestizzle]

The "AI vs. no AI" debate is the topic that just keeps on giving (seemingly forever), with strong opinions on both sides and so many thinking they're the ones who are right because they feel better on their particular protocol of choice.

That being said, I'll add to the debate. I've tried low AI, and no AI; trying to dial in or reduce my test dose to fit a no-AI protocol. Without a doubt, not using an AI doesn't work for me....ever. I turn into a moody, acne-covered, oily, depressed mess of a man that can't get an erection to save his life, and with super high levels of anxiety. I feel the best on a very generous dose of testosterone, with a moderate amount of AI that puts my E somewhere between 18 and 30. Anywhere above that and very negative things start to happen.

I'm actually to the point where I hate posting on this particular topic, but I feel that if I don't there will be men on the forum thinking that "no AI" must be the answer, because not many people on the forum are disagreeing with it.

Thanks for your reply. I’ve tried 3-4 times with the longest being 3 weeks off of an AI. I get the same way- I can’t get an erection or have any libido. The Anti-AIers swear that time will make everything better but no one can say how long. I’ve heard a couple of weeks to a couple of months. I just can’t go that long without sex. It seems like being on a small dose of AI shouldn’t take so long to equilibrate. Then on top of that they claim that the symptoms are just a nocibo effect. I don’t want to be on an AI but I just can’t seem to feel good without one. It’s very frustrating.

 

[CSI007]

I just jumped back on again to ask a similar question. Since my T increase to get my levels out of the 500s my E2 has sky rocketed again into the 50 and 60s. My ED has gotten worse again with the need (almost always) for Viagra generic. The bigger part of the problem is penile sensitivity and delayed ejaculation. I can deal with having to take more Viagra but going at it for an hour or more to climax is really a pain some times (most times)

Never too an AI before but will be meeting with my Doctor soon to discuss.

My neurapthy has been on the increase still and I am also wondering if this might be a cause.

Should I try it.

 

[Cataceous]

...
Should I try it.

I think in your situation I'd want to know if lower estradiol would help. But if you do take an AI then do it very cautiously—low and slow. In the case of anastrozole, for example, this means starting out with only 10-50 mcg a day, on average, and testing a couple weeks after each change. Don't let the doctor just throw you on milligram-level doses.

 

[CSI007]

I think in your situation I'd want to know if lower estradiol would help. But if you do take an AI then do it very cautiously—low and slow. In the case of anastrozole, for example, this means starting out with only 10-50 mcg a day, on average, and testing a couple weeks after each change. Don't let the doctor just throw you on milligram-level doses.

Thank you. Yeah been reading about dosages of anastrozole. I certainly don't want to crash my E2 either. That's what started me on this crazy "adventure" I think my last reading before starting T was 11. Had been like that for years is my guess given the symptoms for years and years.

I guess I could also reduce my dosage back down to 120mg to 130mg per week from the current approx. 144mg/week and see where it goes along with the 200iu of HCG twice a week.