High Free Test — Change Protocol??

[Gnairb5]

Hi everyone - relatively new to TRT. About 3 months. This is my first labs since starting. Paid for on my own so not comprehensive, but has Estradiol, Testosterone, Free T, and SHBG.

I feel ok, not great. Definitely better than pre TRT I would say, but not optimal. I’d say major issues are some feelings of aggression and poor sleep.

Currently at about 70mg a week divided Monday, Wednesday, Friday. No HCG and no AI. 29 years of age.

Would love all of your feedback or input to optimize my dose. Thinking of possible lowering my total weekly dose since Free T and Estradiol are both a bit high. Or maybe daily injections.

Let me know your thoughts! Labs were taken about 12 hours or so before trough on a Friday morning since I inject that day at night. If you have any further questions let me know!

Estradiol — 35

Free Test — 214

SHBG — 23

Total Test 783

 

[sammmy]

Free T looks strangely above normal range, with normal T and SHBG.

 

[Cataceous]

Yes, that free T is higher than expected. Given it's the first such measurement I would consider it provisional. While this test is capable of very good accuracy, its repeatability/reliability is suspect. The free T calculators put free T around top-of-range, so it's still reasonable to consider lowering the dose to end up closer to midrange. For overall good results, more is not better.

For most guys there's not much benefit in further dividing the doses from three times a week. Under these circumstances use of a longer ester such as cypionate typically results in modest variation in serum levels.

 

[Gnairb5]

Thinking I might order some DHEA / Pregnenolone. Heard that having low levels of Preg will make it difficult to handle higher levels of Testosterone.

Also going to bump total weekly dosage down to 60 from 70.

 

[Gman86]

Definitely wouldn’t lower ur dose further. Quest’s original free test goes up to 224. So ur not even at the top of the range. 155 is the top of the range for compromised men with high SHBG levels and therefore much lower free T levels. Go by their original free T range, which is (46.0-224.0). For me to feel the full benefits of TRT I need my free T at least over 300, when I get labs done with quest. I feel noticeably better with my free T in the high 300’s, which is where I like to to keep it. It would equate to around a free T of 42 on labcorp’s range. Dr Keith Nichols says that most of his patients feel optimal with a free T between 30-60. Ur free T would be around 23 on labcorp’s range. Definitely wouldn’t lower ur free T if I were u. I would personally try to raise it more if I were u. But at very minimum, keep it where it is.

Ur E2 isn’t high either. 35 is a great place to have E2. A lot of men need it quite a bit higher to feel optimal. I definitely wouldn’t lower it anymore than 35

 

[Cataceous]

Definitely wouldn’t lower ur dose further. Quest’s original free test goes up to 224. So ur not even at the top of the range. 155 is the top of the range for compromised men with high SHBG levels and therefore much lower free T levels. Go by their original free T range, which is (46.0-224.0). ...

Ignore this. He's not even talking about the same free T test. Quest's calculated free testosterone has this range.

Testimonials on lower dosing:

Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...

www.excelmale.com

Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...

www.excelmale.com

Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are? @JoeMatts im curious for this as well

www.excelmale.com

Hello, 60yo starting TRT.

Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...

www.excelmale.com

Have you ever DECREASED your dose?

Hey guys. I've only been on TRT for about 9 months. I'm on Test Cyp 100 mg Q3.5d with 350iU of HCG IM. I recently (this week) lowered my Anastrozole from 0.5 mg on injection days to 0.25mg to see how it will effect me (side effects, changes in libido, and also then lab values). ****I'm happy...

www.excelmale.com

Hello, 60yo starting TRT.

Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...

www.excelmale.com

TRT patient feeling better after lowering my prescribed dose

Hey Guys, Hope all's well and Happy 4th! I'm looking for feedback. As a young male battling ED and low T, hopefully sharing my experience on what worked helps someone too. Almost 32 now and I use to have severe ED as long as I can remember, maybe late teens. No clue on cause. Maybe it's...

www.excelmale.com

Dose Change Side Effects

Hi guys, I just switched to a daily protocol of 24mg after spending a few weeks on 100mg E3D. This E3D protocol kicked the shit out of me, I dont think I respond well to having so much T at one time. The anxiety and thoughts were nightmarish plus the lethagy is real. Is there anything that...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Gnairb5]

Ignore this. He's not even talking about the same free T test. Quest's calculated free testosterone has this range.

Testimonials on lower dosing:

Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...

www.excelmale.com

Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

I’m a long term TRT patient, 39 years old. I’ve been on cypionate and inject a total of 154mg weekly in EOD subQ shots of 44mg each. I have been doing some thinking about the potential benefit of keeping dosing the same but experimenting with using a low cypionate base around 80-100mg weekly...

www.excelmale.com

Anyone combine injections and cream? How do you feel?

Interesting anecdote. I’m curious what what your SHBG and current protocol are? @JoeMatts im curious for this as well

www.excelmale.com

Hello, 60yo starting TRT.

Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...

www.excelmale.com

Have you ever DECREASED your dose?

Hey guys. I've only been on TRT for about 9 months. I'm on Test Cyp 100 mg Q3.5d with 350iU of HCG IM. I recently (this week) lowered my Anastrozole from 0.5 mg on injection days to 0.25mg to see how it will effect me (side effects, changes in libido, and also then lab values). ****I'm happy...

www.excelmale.com

Hello, 60yo starting TRT.

Hi All. I'm 60yo, lucky with relatively few health problems so far. Total T 350-400. After about a year of research/consideration, about to start TRT, plan is just Test C, 150mg per week separated into two subq injections/week into delts/VGs, draw/inject using 29G 1ml. Get labs in ~8 weeks...

www.excelmale.com

TRT patient feeling better after lowering my prescribed dose

Hey Guys, Hope all's well and Happy 4th! I'm looking for feedback. As a young male battling ED and low T, hopefully sharing my experience on what worked helps someone too. Almost 32 now and I use to have severe ED as long as I can remember, maybe late teens. No clue on cause. Maybe it's...

www.excelmale.com

Dose Change Side Effects

Hi guys, I just switched to a daily protocol of 24mg after spending a few weeks on 100mg E3D. This E3D protocol kicked the shit out of me, I dont think I respond well to having so much T at one time. The anxiety and thoughts were nightmarish plus the lethagy is real. Is there anything that...

www.excelmale.com

Thanks - what would you recommend then? I just feel like 60mg a week is a low dose, but if my numbers are ok and i feel ok then i guess that's the move.

I feel like I would feel too amped up if I went up in my dosage.

 

[Cataceous]

Thanks - what would you recommend then? I just feel like 60mg a week is a low dose, but if my numbers are ok and i feel ok then i guess that's the move.

I feel like I would feel too amped up if I went up in my dosage.

For perspective, 60-70 mg per week of testosterone cypionate is averaging 6-7 mg of testosterone per day. This in turn matches the average daily natural production of men in their prime. I take the equivalent of 44 mg testosterone cypionate per week. A guy over at PeakTestosterone says he's averaging 36 mg per week. You shouldn't feel pressure to use higher doses. The idea is to find the dose that works best overall, which means no symptoms of low T and no side effects such as excessive estradiol or elevated hemoglobin/hematocrit. If you do end up needing more then it's easier to raise the dose than to lower it.

If your free testosterone test is correct then you have a lot of leeway for a dose decrease. I'd try a modest decrease, going down to 60-65 mg per week. Then after a few months assess how you feel and get lab work to see if free testosterone has gone down roughly in proportion to the dose reduction. Ideally you'd also measure total T, estradiol and SHBG. In this way you can compare the calculated free T values to what you've measured and get a better sense of the accuracy of the various numbers.

 

[Gnairb5]

For perspective, 60-70 mg per week of testosterone cypionate is averaging 6-7 mg of testosterone per day. This in turn matches the average daily natural production of men in their prime. I take the equivalent of 44 mg testosterone cypionate per week. A guy over at PeakTestosterone says he's averaging 36 mg per week. You shouldn't feel pressure to use higher doses. The idea is to find the dose that works best overall, which means no symptoms of low T and no side effects such as excessive estradiol or elevated hemoglobin/hematocrit. If you do end up needing more then it's easier to raise the dose than to lower it.

If your free testosterone test is correct then you have a lot of leeway for a dose decrease. I'd try a modest decrease, going down to 60-65 mg per week. Then after a few months assess how you feel and get lab work to see if free testosterone has gone down roughly in proportion to the dose reduction. Ideally you'd also measure total T, estradiol and SHBG. In this way you can compare the calculated free T values to what you've measured and get a better sense of the accuracy of the various numbers.

Hey man -I really appreciate you writing this out. This is super helpful. You just see a lot of the doses that people take and think you need more, but less is more with TRT forsure. And everyone responds differently.

Gonna go back to about 60 for a while and see what happens. Do you think the high free T could be contributing to the insomnia?

 

[Cataceous]

... Do you think the high free T could be contributing to the insomnia?

I think it's very likely that high free T contributes to sleep problems. The evidence is anecdotal, but there's a good bit of it, with many men saying as much. Personally I can't inject testosterone later in the day due to the resulting sleep disturbances. I saw improvement in sleep when I switched to daily injections of a blend of short- and long-acting testosterone esters. This allows serum testosterone to somewhat mimic what's natural, falling during the day and into the night, and not rising until the early morning hours.

 

[Zibernet]

Definitely wouldn’t lower ur dose further. Quest’s original free test goes up to 224. So ur not even at the top of the range. 155 is the top of the range for compromised men with high SHBG levels and therefore much lower free T levels. Go by their original free T range, which is (46.0-224.0). For me to feel the full benefits of TRT I need my free T at least over 300, when I get labs done with quest. I feel noticeably better with my free T in the high 300’s, which is where I like to to keep it. It would equate to around a free T of 42 on labcorp’s range. Dr Keith Nichols says that most of his patients feel optimal with a free T between 30-60. Ur free T would be around 23 on labcorp’s range. Definitely wouldn’t lower ur free T if I were u. I would personally try to raise it more if I were u. But at very minimum, keep it where it is.

Ur E2 isn’t high either. 35 is a great place to have E2. A lot of men need it quite a bit higher to feel optimal. I definitely wouldn’t lower it anymore than 35

I had an intuition you were in the TRT optimization group and part of Keith Nichols followers since the begining. I am too!

Can't believe some doctors only assess the need for TRT based on total testosterone levels.

Pre TRT my total test was 600, but free T was 11 (optimal is 30-60) and e2 undetectable (below 10).

For doctors looking at total test only, I was a young and vibrant healthy male with absolutely no need for exogenous hormones.

@Gnairb5 go by how you feel, not numbers! Free T can't really be too high.
It can only be too low.

 

[Gnairb5]

I think it's very likely that high free T contributes to sleep problems. The evidence is anecdotal, but there's a good bit of it, with many men saying as much. Personally I can't inject testosterone later in the day due to the resulting sleep disturbances. I saw improvement in sleep when I switched to daily injections of a blend of short- and long-acting testosterone esters. This allows serum testosterone to somewhat mimic what's natural, falling during the day and into the night, and not rising until the early morning hours.

Where do you find this blend? Do you get it from your doctor?

 

[Cataceous]

Where do you find this blend? Do you get it from your doctor?

Tips on how to blend propionate with enanthate (or cypionate)?

I have been having some success with low dose daily propionate for the last several months. Dose levels have ranged from 8-10 mg injected every morning after waking. Overall, it has been a far better experience than my previous cypionate protocol of 80-100 per week (split every 3.5 days)...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

I had an intuition you were in the TRT optimization group and part of Keith Nichols followers since the begining. I am too!

Can't believe some doctors only assess the need for TRT based on total testosterone levels.

Pre TRT my total test was 600, but free T was 11 (optimal is 30-60) and e2 undetectable (below 10).

For doctors looking at total test only, I was a young and vibrant healthy male with absolutely no need for exogenous hormones.

@Gnairb5 go by how you feel, not numbers! Free T can't really be too high.
It can only be too low.

You have no clue where your SHBG sits let alone never had your FT tested using an accurate assay (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration).

Unfortunately, as you stated in a previous thread you do not have access to such.

No point in shooting off at the mouth when you have no idea where your FT level truly sat!

Even then a FT 5-10 ng/dL would be considered low.

FT 16-31 ng/dL (top end) is healthy!

Most men will do well with FT in the 20-30 ng/dL range and some may choose to run slightly higher or even absurdly high levels.

Highly doubtful trough FT 50-60 ng/dL would be needed to experience relief/improvement of low-t symptoms let alone feel great overall.

Most claiming to need such levels most likely have underlying issue thyroid/adrenals.

Many men pre-trt have FT 5-10ng/dL.

Most of these men in their f**king PRIME (late teens/the early 20s) when they felt their best were never even hitting an FT on the upper end 30 ng/dL and that is at peak.

Now you have idiots with the more T is better mentality (spewed by the bro forums) thinking that they need to be jacking up their trough FT levels 50-60 ng/dL to feel good let alone achieve that so-called fairytale.....OPTIMAL!

Top it off that many of these same individuals preaching the so-called optimization were jacked up on T from the get-go.

Just like your sidekick (that manchild) who claims/preaches, it is all about balance yet is running his T levels well beyond where they sat in his prime (late teens/the early 20s).

This is the same guy:

8 years in and still clinging on numerous nutsacks!

Jacked up on T from the get-go.

Numerous protocols years in and he is still searching for that so-called fairytale.....LMFAO.

Hops on trt and drives his trough TT/FT level through the roof.....high SHBG bruh.....need to be hitting 2000 ng/dL with FT 60-70 ng/dL bruh!

Jumps all over scrotal as if it's the next best thing.

Then it's nandrolone as the end all be all.

Now he does a complete 360 back on high dose T 210 mg/week only to eventually try lowering it 175 mg/week while throwing in ND 100 mg/week, low dose GH and it gets even better-added oxandrolone to boot driving his previously highish SHBG (the 40s) down into the ground 11 nmol/L.....go figure.

Yet still using/relying upon inaccurate assays.

This clown that still clings on Nichols nutsack and is always preaching the so-called FT 30-60 ng/dL is optimal yet has never even tested his FT using the most accurate assays gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) and has no clue where his FT level truly sits.

This is the assay Nichols uses.

070038: Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS

www.labcorp.com

For years he was running trough TT 1600-1800ng/dL (EOD injections) with highish SHBG claiming he needed such to achieve a healthy FT.

Such levels even with highish/high SHBG would have one FT level through the roof easily hitting 50-60 ng/dL.

Now he is still running a TT well beyond 1500 ng/dL yet drove his SHBG even lower 11 nmol/L which would easily have his trough FT 60-70 ng/dL range.

Again he would have no clue as he is out to lunch when it comes to testing labs using accurate assays.

Joe fucking health.

It's all about balance he preaches.

Never-ending merry-go-round.

Like I said too many get caught up on the more T is better mentality jacking up levels from the get-go only to run into numerous issues constantly struggling.

Never had even tried let alone gave a lower-dose protocol a fighting chance.

Then you can throw in all those blast n cruisers you know the ones that claim running absurdly high TT/FT levels is needed to feel good on trt.

F**king shit show.

Of course, symptom relief is what truly matters but regardless lab work is critical as not only do we need to see where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has TT, FT, estradiol let alone other hormones but more importantly other blood markers as not only are we trying to achieve healthy hormones but at the same time prevent/minimize any potential side-effects.

We are in this for the long term.

If you are one that truly feels great overall running high/absurdly high levels and blood markers are healthy let alone you are not struggling with sides then do what is best for you.

People need to get their shit str8 when it comes to preaching it's all about balance let alone being optimized.

Many doctors in the know would tell you that most men will do well with FT 20-30 ng/ dL.

Needing to hit this magical 50-60 ng/dL is bullshit.

There is such a thing as too high FT!

 

[Zibernet]

You have no clue where your SHBG sits let alone never had your FT tested using an accurate assay (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration).

Unfortunately, as you stated in a previous thread you do not have access to such.

No point in shooting off at the mouth when you have no idea where your FT level truly sat!

Even then a FT 5-10 ng/dL would be considered low.

FT 16-31 ng/dL (top end) is healthy!

Most men will do well with FT in the 20-30 ng/dL range and some may choose to run slightly higher or even absurdly high levels.

Highly doubtful trough FT 50-60 ng/dL would be needed to experience relief/improvement of low-t symptoms let alone feel great overall.

Most claiming to need such levels most likely have underlying issue thyroid/adrenals.

Many men pre-trt have FT 5-10ng/dL.

Most of these men in their f**king PRIME (late teens/the early 20s) when they felt their best were never even hitting an FT on the upper end 30 ng/dL and that is at peak.

Now you have idiots with the more T is better mentality (spewed by the bro forums) thinking that they need to be jacking up their trough FT levels 50-60 ng/dL to feel good let alone achieve that so-called fairytale.....OPTIMAL!

Top it off that many of these same individuals preaching the so-called optimization were jacked up on T from the get-go.

Just like your sidekick (that manchild) who claims/preaches, it is all about balance yet is running his T levels well beyond where they sat in his prime (late teens/the early 20s).

This is the same guy:

8 years in and still clinging on numerous nutsacks!

Jacked up on T from the get-go.

Numerous protocols years in and he is still searching for that so-called fairytale.....LMFAO.

Hops on trt and drives his trough TT/FT level through the roof.....high SHBG bruh.....need to be hitting 2000 ng/dL with FT 60-70 ng/dL bruh!

Jumps all over scrotal as if it's the next best thing.

Then it's nandrolone as the end all be all.

Now he does a complete 360 back on high dose T 210 mg/week only to eventually try lowering it 175 mg/week while throwing in ND 100 mg/week, low dose GH and it gets even better-added oxandrolone to boot driving his previously highish SHBG (the 40s) down into the ground 11 nmol/L.....go figure.

Yet still using/relying upon inaccurate assays.

This clown that still clings on Nichols nutsack and is always preaching the so-called FT 30-60 ng/dL is optimal yet has never even tested his FT using the most accurate assays gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration (next best) and has no clue where his FT level truly sits.

This is the assay Nichols uses.

070038: Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS | Labcorp

Labcorp test details for Testosterone, Free, Equilibrium Ultrafiltration With Total Testosterone, LC/MS-MS

www.labcorp.com

For years he was running trough TT 1600-1800ng/dL (EOD injections) with highish SHBG claiming he needed such to achieve a healthy FT.

Such levels even with highish/high SHBG would have one FT level through the roof easily hitting 50-60 ng/dL.

Now he is still running a TT well beyond 1500 ng/dL yet drove his SHBG even lower 11 nmol/L which would easily have his trough FT 60-70 ng/dL range.

Again he would have no clue as he is out to lunch when it comes to testing labs using accurate assays.

Joe fucking health.

It's all about balance he preaches.

Never-ending merry-go-round.

Like I said too many get caught up on the more T is better mentality jacking up levels from the get-go only to run into numerous issues constantly struggling.

Never had even tried let alone gave a lower-dose protocol a fighting chance.

Then you can throw in all those blast n cruisers you know the ones that claim running absurdly high TT/FT levels is needed to feel good on trt.

F**king shit show.

Of course, symptom relief is what truly matters but regardless lab work is critical as not only do we need to see where said protocol (dose T/injection frequency) has TT, FT, estradiol let alone other hormones but more importantly other blood markers as not only are we trying to achieve healthy hormones but at the same time prevent/minimize any potential side-effects.

We are in this for the long term.

If you are one that truly feels great overall running high/absurdly high levels and blood markers are healthy let alone you are not struggling with sides then do what is best for you.

People need to get their shit str8 when it comes to preaching it's all about balance let alone being optimized.

Many doctors in the know would tell you that most men will do well with FT 20-30 ng/ dL.

Needing to hit this magical 50-60 ng/dL is bullshit.

There is such a thing as too high FT!

Are you ok dude? Who are you even talking about?

 

[madman]

Are you ok dude? Who are you even talking about?

That would be merry it's all about balance Gary!

You know the guy that is either in denial as to where his FT levels truly sit on such protocols, playing stupid, or is just a complete idiot.

8 years in.....who knew!


post #43

Anavar (Oxandrolone) and Ipamorelin is the bomb!

Thanks for the methodical and disciplined follow up on your blood work. Since you have the NMR LipoProfile or equivalent (LDL-p counts, etc) can you post those and do you have a baseline pre-oxandrolone. If I am reading your post above correctly, you didn't take a hit on your cholesterol...

www.excelmale.com