Help with E2 and Arimidex

[swellco]

Long story short, Like most here, I started with a local clinic to treat my low T. In house T test came back at 161. Got put on 125mg of test cyp once a week IM. Fisrt shot was on Monday 9/19/16. No AI no HCG. 3 days later my additional (limited) blodwork came back and Doc said to take .5 of Arimidex on that day and every time I inject. One week later 500IU of HCG was added to the protocol. So protocol was 125 cyp on Monday with .5 arimidex and HCG on Thursday. Labs attached. E2 came back 13.4 7.6 - 42.6 pg/ml. Everything else normal.

6 weeks later drew bloodwork through my PC and came back with these results. Bloodwork was done early in the morning right before my next shot at the through.

Total T 267 ng/dl 241-827
Free T 84 pg/ml 47-244
Estradiol 23 pg/ml <39
LH <0.1 mIU/ml 1.5-9.3 Low
Iron 51 mcg/dl 65-175 Low
DHEA 372 mcg/dl 55-244 High
Hemocratic 46.6 % 41-53

I decided to switch to Defy and started the transitioning period. I was given my last month supply to hold me over untill I have my consultation on 12/20.
I also decided to split my dose to every 3.5 days on Monday morning and Thursday afternoon Sub. HCG day after injection 250 IU each time. Arimidex on shot day.
My question is should I be on Arimidex given my E2 levels. In all my time on TRT I felt good probably one week. At the moment I have mood swings, no motivation and erections not as hard. Libido is there just not feeling it down there. Night erections are there somewhat, just not as strong as that one week. Also, when I took the Arimidex the first week I had poping shoulders and joint aches. probably since I took the AI Thursday then again Monday.
So, should I keep taking the AI and keep everything the same until I see Dr. Saya or should I skip the AI this week and see how I feel?
Also, I scheduled more bloodwork for this Monday through discounted labs and ordered the sensitive E2, total and free test and SHBG test so Dr. Saya has something more recent.
All input will be greatly appreciated.

 

[CoastWatcher]

On the eighth of November you posted that you were discontinuing anastrozole. Did you follow through on that? Did you start taking an AI again? If so, what drove that decision?

 

[swellco]

On the eighth of November you posted that you were discontinuing anastrozole. Did you follow through on that? Did you start taking an AI again? If so, what drove that decision?

Ha good eye Coastwatcher! Yes forgot to add that. I actually did stop for a week and then started again. I started again because I wasn't feeling good and figured it was because i stopped. Resumed the following week. Took out half the capsule. The following weeks I just took the full dosage again. Just so hard to figure this E2 out. Don't know if Im too low or too high. Now Im chasing that one good week I had. I dont even want to bother with the clinic I am with at the moment since they are not on the cutting edge of TRT from my experience. Good thing is just one more week until my consultation.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Ha good eye Coastwatcher! Yes forgot to add that. I actually did stop for a week and then started again. I started again because I wasn't feeling good and figured it was because i stopped. Resumed the following week. Took out half the capsule. The following weeks I just took the full dosage again. Just so hard to figure this E2 out. Don't know if Im too low or too high. Now Im chasing that one good week I had. I dont even want to bother with the clinic I am with at the moment since they are not on the cutting edge of TRT from my experience. Good thing is just one more week until my consultation.

You've never had a sensitive estradiol test run, is that right? Just the standard test? On top of that you have stopped, then restarted the AI, but you juggled the dose, half a dose...then the next time a full dose. You have no idea what your e2 level actually is. It's a very good bet that you have suppressed your levels to an unhealthy point. There's no real justification for you to be in an AI at all, absent a confirming blood test and symptoms.

Have you accessed the sensitive labs through Discountedlabs.com yet? Blood drawn, or is that on your agenda? If it has yet to happen, I would urge you to do it as quickly as possible. Your consultation is when?

 

[swellco]

You've never had a sensitive estradiol test run, is that right? Just the standard test? On top of that you have stopped, then restarted the AI, but you juggled the dose, half a dose...then the next time a full dose. You have no idea what your e2 level actually is. It's a very good bet that you have suppressed your levels to an unhealthy point. There's no real justification for you to be in an AI at all, absent a confirming blood test and symptoms.

Have you accessed the sensitive labs through Discountedlabs.com yet? Blood drawn, or is that on your agenda? If it has yet to happen, I would urge you to do it as quickly as possible. Your consultation is when?

Correct. Never done a sensitive test. And yes, I messed with the dosage. My take on it was that my E2 was low to begin with but kept on it per the protocol I was given except for those 2 weeks. Then I regretted not following the protocol which led me back on it.
My bloodwork is scheduled for this Monday. My appointment with Dr. Saya is on the 20th of this month.
Tons of research on this forum is leading me to believe I shouldn't be on AI on those E2 levels especially when the regular test usually give a higher reading.
Do you think I should stay off the AI until my test results come back? What is your take on my E2 results?
Problem is i cant figure out if Im too low or too high since most symptoms are the same for both low and high E2. Im feeling irritated, anxiety and no motivation. Although today Im feeling a little better. i took 30 mg of cyp on monday along with the .5 arimidex. shot 250 Iu of HCG on Tuesday.
Thanks so much for your input. Without this forum I would be clueless!!

 

[CoastWatcher]

Correct. Never done a sensitive test. And yes, I messed with the dosage. My take on it was that my E2 was low to begin with but kept on it per the protocol I was given except for those 2 weeks. Then I regretted not following the protocol which led me back on it.
My bloodwork is scheduled for this Monday. My appointment with Dr. Saya is on the 20th of this month.
Tons of research on this forum is leading me to believe I shouldn't be on AI on those E2 levels especially when the regular test usually give a higher reading.
Do you think I should stay off the AI until my test results come back? What is your take on my E2 results?
Problem is i cant figure out if Im too low or too high since most symptoms are the same for both low and high E2. Im feeling irritated, anxiety and no motivation. Although today Im feeling a little better. i took 30 mg of cyp on monday along with the .5 arimidex. shot 250 Iu of HCG on Tuesday.
Thanks so much for your input. Without this forum I would be clueless!!

You can't play with your protocol based on how you feel, moment to moment. Playing fast and loose with your dose, the dose of any element of your protocol, based only on symptoms, absent a blood test, will lead you down the rabbit hole - just where you find yourself now. At the same time, a blood test always has to be matched to subjective feelings - symptoms. A good doctor, and that is exactly what Dr. Saya is, considers the patient in the totality of the circumstances before ordering a change. Please, learn patience or you will find nothing but frustration going forward.

I would grit my my teeth and make no further changes, maintain what you're doing until your blood is drawn; it's only days away. That way, Dr. Saya will have a sense of what your crazy protocol actually did to your levels. Should the test come back showing suppressed e2, likely, you can revisit this.

 

[johndoesmith]

Correct. Never done a sensitive test. And yes, I messed with the dosage. My take on it was that my E2 was low to begin with but kept on it per the protocol I was given except for those 2 weeks. Then I regretted not following the protocol which led me back on it.
My bloodwork is scheduled for this Monday. My appointment with Dr. Saya is on the 20th of this month.
Tons of research on this forum is leading me to believe I shouldn't be on AI on those E2 levels especially when the regular test usually give a higher reading.
Do you think I should stay off the AI until my test results come back? What is your take on my E2 results?
Problem is i cant figure out if Im too low or too high since most symptoms are the same for both low and high E2. Im feeling irritated, anxiety and no motivation. Although today Im feeling a little better. i took 30 mg of cyp on monday along with the .5 arimidex. shot 250 Iu of HCG on Tuesday.
Thanks so much for your input. Without this forum I would be clueless!!

You are absolutely low E2 now. You have a test at 13, which is a standard test, so almost absolutely lower.

Plus you said "At the moment I have mood swings, no motivation and erections not as hard. Libido is there just not feeling it down there. Night erections are there somewhat, just not as strong as that one week. Also, when I took the Arimidex the first week I had poping shoulders and joint aches"

That is a hallmark symptom of low E2. I know, because I was there, and my friend I consider low E2 to be an 8th amendment violation of cruel and unusual punishment. I wouldn't let it be used on terrorists.

Let me ask you, do you feel anhedonic, more urination, increased thirst, and possibly some itchy hot flashes? Anxiety must be through the roof.

I absolutely would NOT take AI if I were you. Especially since you're concerned about being low on E2.



You said "3 days later my additional (limited) blodwork came back and Doc said to take .5 of Arimidex on that day and every time I inject" I assume that was a pre TRT test, but do you have the E2 test that led your doctor to prescribe you an AI? Or is it the 13 E2 test?

It's a common problem men face with TRT, to AI or not to AI, that is the question. Unless you have near top of the range E2 pre TRT I say not to. You certainly aren't complaining of high E2 symptoms, no nipple issues, bloating, being more emotional, or gyno that I heard.



Additionally, since you're starting with defy, I can only assume they're going to order you labs for the consult, unless they're using the labs you have. I think you should call defy and tell them that your labs are somewhat inaccurate with all the changes and ask to order new ones.


"i took 30 mg of cyp on monday along with the .5 arimidex. shot 250 Iu of HCG on Tuesday."

Can I ask why you took 30mg of testosterone? Is that a typo perhaps? Like coastwatcher said, you must have patience with TRT or you will end up spinning your wheels and find yourself in exactly the predicament you're in now. I know it's tough to do but it's essential. Accurate data is what drives a good protocol as much as symptoms do.

 

[swellco]

You can't play with your protocol based on how you feel, moment to moment. Playing fast and loose with your dose, the dose of any element of your protocol, based only on symptoms, absent a blood test, will lead you down the rabbit hole - just where you find yourself now. At the same time, a blood test always has to be matched to subjective feelings - symptoms. A good doctor, and that is exactly what Dr. Saya is, considers the patient in the totality of the circumstances before ordering a change. Please, learn patience or you will find nothing but frustration going forward.

I would grit my my teeth and make no further changes, maintain what you're doing until your blood is drawn; it's only days away. That way, Dr. Saya will have a sense of what your crazy protocol actually did to your levels. Should the test come back showing suppressed e2, likely, you can revisit this.

Thanks for your input. I know I shouldnt of messed with the protocol.
But if it wasnt for my perseverance I would still be listening to my PP telling me I was normal and to take an anti depressant.
I probably would of stuck with the protocol the "specialized" low T clinic gave me too if it wasnt for all the research I came across this and a few other forums.
Thank you all for the information provided on these forums. Ill bite the bullet and wait anxiously until my appointment with Dr. Saya.

 

[swellco]

You are absolutely low E2 now. You have a test at 13, which is a standard test, so almost absolutely lower.

Plus you said "At the moment I have mood swings, no motivation and erections not as hard. Libido is there just not feeling it down there. Night erections are there somewhat, just not as strong as that one week. Also, when I took the Arimidex the first week I had poping shoulders and joint aches"

That is a hallmark symptom of low E2. I know, because I was there, and my friend I consider low E2 to be an 8th amendment violation of cruel and unusual punishment. I wouldn't let it be used on terrorists.

Let me ask you, do you feel anhedonic, more urination, increased thirst, and possibly some itchy hot flashes? Anxiety must be through the roof.

I absolutely would NOT take AI if I were you. Especially since you're concerned about being low on E2.



You said "3 days later my additional (limited) blodwork came back and Doc said to take .5 of Arimidex on that day and every time I inject" I assume that was a pre TRT test, but do you have the E2 test that led your doctor to prescribe you an AI? Or is it the 13 E2 test?

It's a common problem men face with TRT, to AI or not to AI, that is the question. Unless you have near top of the range E2 pre TRT I say not to. You certainly aren't complaining of high E2 symptoms, no nipple issues, bloating, being more emotional, or gyno that I heard.



Additionally, since you're starting with defy, I can only assume they're going to order you labs for the consult, unless they're using the labs you have. I think you should call defy and tell them that your labs are somewhat inaccurate with all the changes and ask to order new ones.


"i took 30 mg of cyp on monday along with the .5 arimidex. shot 250 Iu of HCG on Tuesday."

Can I ask why you took 30mg of testosterone? Is that a typo perhaps? Like coastwatcher said, you must have patience with TRT or you will end up spinning your wheels and find yourself in exactly the predicament you're in now. I know it's tough to do but it's essential. Accurate data is what drives a good protocol as much as symptoms do.

The test that showed 13 was pre TRT. The PA just told me to take it that day and every time I pin based on my pre TRT test.

The only thing that confuses me is that I am somewhat emotional too, like almost to tears when i hear or see something inspiring or sad.

I am drawing new bloodwork this Monday for a more accurate consultation with Defy.

Yes the 30 mg was a typo. that is where I draw in a 1 cc syringe. I meant 60 mg. 125 mg was original weekly dose.

Ugh.

 

[johndoesmith]

The test that showed 13 was pre TRT. The PA just told me to take it that day and every time I pin based on my pre TRT test.

The only thing that confuses me is that I am somewhat emotional too, like almost to tears when i hear or see something inspiring or sad.

I am drawing new bloodwork this Monday for a more accurate consultation with Defy.

Yes the 30 mg was a typo. that is where I draw in a 1 cc syringe. I meant 60 mg. 125 mg was original weekly dose.

Ugh.

You more likely than not crashed it. Let me ask you, do you feel anhedonic, more urination, increased thirst, and possibly some itchy hot flashes? Anxiety must be through the roof.

No need to be hard on yourself, as long as you learn from this, and maintain consistency going forward this is all but a learning experience, albeit an uncomfortable one.

The emotional aspect is odd, but low E2 effects everyone differently. I certainly don't hear much other high E2 symptoms from you.

 

[swellco]

You more likely than not crashed it. Let me ask you, do you feel anhedonic, more urination, increased thirst, and possibly some itchy hot flashes? Anxiety must be through the roof.

No need to be hard on yourself, as long as you learn from this, and maintain consistency going forward this is all but a learning experience, albeit an uncomfortable one.
The emotional aspect is odd, but low E2 effects everyone differently. I certainly don't hear much other high E2 symptoms from you.

johndoesmith, now that you mention it YES! I get up to urinate more often and have trouble sleeping even with zolpidem. In addition, I was getting hot last night even though no heater and was 62 in the house. I also just had that itchy spell when I took a shower with hot water. I thought it was weird and thought it was due to dry weather. Furthermore I had this nagging elbow pain that is diminishing today. And now that i think about it, my right leg felt achy and weird at my pelvic/hip joint.
The more i think about it, Im probably too low. Add that and the fact that Im pinning twice a week which would lower aromatization.
Ive always been kind of emotional pre TRT. Not like crying but more like goosebumps and sometimes a surge of emotions when seeing or hearing inspiring things.
Bright side is Im a week and a half from my consultation. Im going to pin tonight and monitor closely how i feel the next few days. Im on the fence on taking that AI on Monday and may just rough it through till I consult with the Doc.
Man, thanks to this community!

 

[johndoesmith]

johndoesmith, now that you mention it YES! I get up to urinate more often and have trouble sleeping even with zolpidem. In addition, I was getting hot last night even though no heater and was 62 in the house. I also just had that itchy spell when I took a shower with hot water. I thought it was weird and thought it was due to dry weather. Furthermore I had this nagging elbow pain that is diminishing today. And now that i think about it, my right leg felt achy and weird at my pelvic/hip joint.
The more i think about it, Im probably too low. Add that and the fact that Im pinning twice a week which would lower aromatization.
Ive always been kind of emotional pre TRT. Not like crying but more like goosebumps and sometimes a surge of emotions when seeing or hearing inspiring things.
Bright side is Im a week and a half from my consultation. Im going to pin tonight and monitor closely how i feel the next few days. Im on the fence on taking that AI on Monday and may just rough it through till I consult with the Doc.
Man, thanks to this community!

Yeah, I lived that for way way too long, I know low E2 symptoms like I know my address.

For me, it was like I needed a police escort to go piss. Then thirsty enough to drink water til my stomach hurt. The itchy hot flashes were so damned uncomfortable I would start almost squirming and twitching like I had a spider crawling on me or something, they would sometimes seriously hurt. Funny thing is, these symptoms are so subtle and insidious you won't realize them until someone else points them out. See my friend here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog


I think you have an addiction to AI I am not sure why after suffering the hell that is low E2, you'd be on the fence about taking it again. I urge you to heed my words and not take AI on monday, get the bloods without it, and see where you're at.

 

[swellco]

Yeah, I lived that for way way too long, I know low E2 symptoms like I know my address.

For me, it was like I needed a police escort to go piss. Then thirsty enough to drink water til my stomach hurt. The itchy hot flashes were so damned uncomfortable I would start almost squirming and twitching like I had a spider crawling on me or something, they would sometimes seriously hurt. Funny thing is, these symptoms are so subtle and insidious you won't realize them until someone else points them out. See my friend here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog


I think you have an addiction to AI I am not sure why after suffering the hell that is low E2, you'd be on the fence about taking it again. I urge you to heed my words and not take AI on monday, get the bloods without it, and see where you're at.

Hell No I do not have an addiction to AI Its what was prescribed to me before I became knowledgable. I actually hate meds and have never been on any except for my BP medicine just 3 years ago. getting on TRT was bad enough since I have a phobia towards needles.
From my extensive research, its hard to determine low or high E2. Im with you on quitting the AI. I did it before but felt guilty as I felt I should follow protocol. But after educating myself i think I will make the call I feel best for me untill my consult. Id rather go without an AI than taking and crashing my E2.
Thanks soooo much for your input!

 

[johndoesmith]

Hell No I do not have an addiction to AI Its what was prescribed to me before I became knowledgable. I actually hate meds and have never been on any except for my BP medicine just 3 years ago. getting on TRT was bad enough since I have a phobia towards needles.
From my extensive research, its hard to determine low or high E2. Im with you on quitting the AI. I did it before but felt guilty as I felt I should follow protocol. But after educating myself i think I will make the call I feel best for me untill my consult. Id rather go without an AI than taking and crashing my E2.
Thanks soooo much for your input!

Haha I only said that because of this "The more i think about it, Im probably too low" followed by "Im on the fence on taking that AI on Monday" this.

I understand the guilt about following protocol, but as an example, the US military is legally obligated to disobey unlawful orders.

At the end of the day, it is your decision, and you are entirely able to delay AI until after your lab test at the minimum, just to get a correct read. Seeing as it's defy's lab order, it will be a sensitive E2 test.

I wish you the best and hopefully I see you hear saying "WOW I feel better" whether it's with or without AI.

 

[swellco]

Haha I only said that because of this "The more i think about it, Im probably too low" followed by "Im on the fence on taking that AI on Monday" this.

I understand the guilt about following protocol, but as an example, the US military is legally obligated to disobey unlawful orders.

At the end of the day, it is your decision, and you are entirely able to delay AI until after your lab test at the minimum, just to get a correct read. Seeing as it's defy's lab order, it will be a sensitive E2 test.

I wish you the best and hopefully I see you hear saying "WOW I feel better" whether it's with or without AI.

Thank you for your insight. i will update after I get my bloodwork Monday.

 

[swellco]

Here is my update from the labs I took last Monday. Boy was I off. Turned out to be high E2.
I ended up following my protocol and took .5 mg of Arimidex last Monday after I took my labs. Got to say it was one of the best days I had. Lots of energy and motivation. However, the next day I felt like crap again. I took another .5mg today which is my injection day. Protocol is 60mg of Test cyp every 3.5 days subQ. 250 IU of HCG on Tuesday and Saturday and .5 mg of Arimidex on Mondays only.
I think my T levels are good but my free T is high. Ugh, this is frustrating but I guess it will be worth it in the long run. Feels like Im chasing a high.
Good news is that tomorrow I have my first consult with Dr. Saya and hopefully he will dial me in.

 

[johndoesmith]

Here is my update from the labs I took last Monday. Boy was I off. Turned out to be high E2.
I ended up following my protocol and took .5 mg of Arimidex last Monday after I took my labs. Got to say it was one of the best days I had. Lots of energy and motivation. However, the next day I felt like crap again. I took another .5mg today which is my injection day. Protocol is 60mg of Test cyp every 3.5 days subQ. 250 IU of HCG on Tuesday and Saturday and .5 mg of Arimidex on Mondays only.
I think my T levels are good but my free T is high. Ugh, this is frustrating but I guess it will be worth it in the long run. Feels like Im chasing a high.
Good news is that tomorrow I have my first consult with Dr. Saya and hopefully he will dial me in.

So wait, monday is shot day for testosterone?

You felt good monday, took AI, and tuesday felt terrible? Did you feel great after taking the AI for a little bit, then woke up tuesday feeling terrible?

 

[swellco]

So wait, monday is shot day for testosterone?

You felt good monday, took AI, and tuesday felt terrible? Did you feel great after taking the AI for a little bit, then woke up tuesday feeling terrible?

Yes, Monday is injection day. Monday took labs around 7:30 am. Went home injected and took the AI. Within hours felt great. All day. next day was meh. Following days were the same, maybe a spurt of feel good here and there.

 

[swellco]

UPDATE:
Thought I would post an update to m condition.
I had my consultation with Dr. Saya on 12/202016. He explained in detail my blood work and put me on this protocol:
44mg of Test, 23IU of HCG and.2 Arimidex every MWF. Dr. Saya asked me how I felt about pinning 3 times a week saying it would help my low Shbg. I had no problems with it and started the protocol the following Friday.
Albeit I had a bad anxiety attack at the beginning( probably due to high estrogen) it has been great since! I feel awesome and have surges of happiness and well being so much that I have to let out a hell yeah! My strength at the gym is the same as when I was 30. My stamina is great and recovery is fast. My libido is still not 100 percent there but I do get these surges. I'm thinking I'm still high on e2 and they are slowly leveling out.
So moral of the story here is what everyone here always suggest. Stick to your protocol and do blood work before making changes. Do not assume based on feelings.
I'm very happy with the treatment with Defy. They're top notch. Oh, and Dr Saya definitely reads these boards as he was familiar with my condition from my post here.
Only thing I really have to work on is my crappy diet. I eat terrible due to my job. I'm out in the field all day and resort to fast food. My next goal is to clean my diet.
Anyway thanks to all who input.

 

[CoastWatcher]

UPDATE:
Thought I would post an update to m condition.
I had my consultation with Dr. Saya on 12/202016. He explained in detail my blood work and put me on this protocol:
44mg of Test, 23IU of HCG and.2 Arimidex every MWF. Dr. Saya asked me how I felt about pinning 3 times a week saying it would help my low Shbg. I had no problems with it and started the protocol the following Friday.
Albeit I had a bad anxiety attack at the beginning( probably due to high estrogen) it has been great since! I feel awesome and have surges of happiness and well being so much that I have to let out a hell yeah! My strength at the gym is the same as when I was 30. My stamina is great and recovery is fast. My libido is still not 100 percent there but I do get these surges. I'm thinking I'm still high on e2 and they are slowly leveling out.
So moral of the story here is what everyone here always suggest. Stick to your protocol and do blood work before making changes. Do not assume based on feelings.
I'm very happy with the treatment with Defy. They're top notch. Oh, and Dr Saya definitely reads these boards as he was familiar with my condition from my post here.
Only thing I really have to work on is my crappy diet. I eat terrible due to my job. I'm out in the field all day and resort to fast food. My next goal is to clean my diet.
Anyway thanks to all who input.

I'm glad you were pleased with your consultation and that you're on the right track. Patience is the hallmark of a successful TRT protocol - please remember that. All the best in the new year!