Have any thoughtful insight or experience??

[Specialk]

Hey Guys,

New here, but not new to TRT. I have to make a decision and I honestly don't know what to do.

Ok, history, former competitive bodybuilder / power lifter who definitely took too much gear in his 20's (heck any of you old time body builders remember Zack's gym on the east coast??-- before steroids were illegal, you could buy them mail order legally!)...

Anyway, I probably only did 10+ cycles my entire life, never had an issue coming off, didn't even know what PCT was back then (1980's)... Life moved on, I always lifted (still do) but had some very serious stress when I was about 35 yrs old (about 20 yrs ago) before than felt great, was big and strong and happy as a clam. But after the big time stress, I got depressed, not medicated, just normal human condition after/during stress... a buddy of mine was on TRT back then and suggested I try one of his gel packs... so I did and I felt like a million bucks in short order.

So I found a TRT doc and while they did all the testing, pituitary was ok, hypothalamus was ok, even my nards were ok, yet my total and free T was low... 320+- (I can't remember) so they put me on TRT and I have been on it for all this time... Almost 2 decades.

I had some hard core stress again (hey I'm blessed only two times in 51 years!)...but I guess my hormones take the brunt of stress, because I got hypER-thyroid (not hyp-O)... it was the most horrible experience I've even been through as I am a high adrenaline guy to begin with, I went to and endo and he said hyp-ER-thyroid makes you 10 times more sensitive to adrenaline, so it was like an anxiety attack on steroids, continually, until they got me on beta blockers (at the hospital... I tried to tuff it out on my own and wound up in the hospital, shaking violently, had lost 30 lbs in 2 weeks....etc.)

The endo said I didn't have Hashimoto's or Graves, just stress related inflammation of my thyroid, it ended, never came back and I've been good for almost 3 years with no re-occurance.

The endo also wanted to address my TRT since I was there (He's a cool guy) and after running a bunch of tests, he told me there is nothing wrong with my system and I should take Clomid to get everything up and running again.

So I was supposed to take 50mg daily and I could not handle it... I was light headed, sad - weepy...etc.. I have a family and can't be walking around feeling sorry for myself all day every day. So I went to 25mg daily and it was tolerable but I got tested and my Total T level was only 450 (I don't remember ng/dl, or pg/ml ) so I was not feeling like it was worth the side effects.

So I thought, well, if everything works, why not just suck it up and see if your body can fix itself. So I went off TRT completely for over a year... my labs were worse... 325+- with free T basically in the right proportion, E2 all in right proportions...

So I went back to my TRT doc (a friend of mine) and told him I wanted to try Dr. Schully's (sp?) protocol, but since I am real sensitive to all drugs, I went on 1000 iu HCG EOD for 10 shots while simultaneously taking 20mg/day Tamoxifen ( Nolvadex) and continued the Tamoxifen for an additional 2 weeks after the shots were done.

I've done the protocol twice and my labs just came in at 324 Total T, 4.2 Free T and I didn't need the tests as I knew I felt crummy.. However while on HCG I felt fantastic, even my family was excited for me.

I have read that HCG causes a negative feedback loop on LH and FSH so long term is no good and my doc feels that long term Tamoxifen is a bad idea. He also feels that aging Lydig cells just don't respond to "normal" physiological levels of LH (since I have normal levels)...

So now I am back at square one..

I hate TRT because I am a super active guy, and in my humble opinion testosterone is very much like insulin in that, a lot of variable effect the bodies requirement levels; For example, stress, high physical work load, diet....etc... so same for testosterone, when I do jiu jitsu 4 days a week, plus lift weights, plus work on my grove at home, I need MORE testosterone than when I am sitting behind the computer or lounging all day. I know this personally from experience over decades of TRT.

So I don't want to go on TRT where I am always behind the 8 ball when it comes to dosage and I obviously don't want to stay low T, as I am irritable (generally, not always) and moody (like a grumpy old man). I only feel great while I'm at the gym pumping iron and that only lasts for a few hours after.

I hated the shots and Dr. Schully said in an interview (I believe on this website) that the supraphisological levels that come from the first few days on shots are what raise hematocrit levels (and mine got high enough I had to do paid blood draws - as if you're too high, the blood donor places won't even take your blood) and I definitely do NOT want to go once a month to have my blood drawn (I know a guy who does it twice a month...man, he's gonna scar up like a drug addict!).

I know a friend who takes cream and I have tried it before...I just don't want to be on anything really, because of the inability to dose proper for activities and stresses. Yet as I said before, being a grumpy old guy is no fun either.

So I guess, I'm opening up to some THOUGHTFUL input from all of you. I am not going to respond to any jokes or flames of any kind.

Thanks in advance for any well thought (hopefully research or experience based) input.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

SpecialK

I read your post and I think I know what you are asking but I am not sure. Do you want suggestions that are not TRT related to feel better/ Can you please summarize in a few sentences what your specific question is? Or are you wanting to know if there are better HPGA reset protocols?

 

[Helboi]

I think you should consider TRT again, this time with a cutting edge protocol behind it. And do injections, twice a week at least. I know you've had lots of experience, but I believe you can get to a steady state with the right, personalized protocol and you won't be behind the 8-ball all the time, as you said.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Welcome to Excelmale. This isn't a community where you are subject jokes or flames, as you put it. It's about respect - all of us are striving to deal with health challenges. To summarize: you have extensive experience with TRT, injections, topicals, HCG mono therapy. All of that said, you express genuine reservations about returning to any form of TRT. You consult doctors with whom you seem to have open, respectful communication. Is this a fair presentation?

How can we help you? The majority of us who have found improved health through androgen replacement therapy did so by adopting an exogenous, testosterone replacement protocol. Which is not to say that there aren't successful members here who have restored their health and vitality through the use of Clomid. While we have a fair number of members using topical testosterone, I believe it would be fair to say that the majority of our members inject two to three times weekly, some inject on a daily basis.

Perhaps you you could explain what you meant when you wrote that you didn't want "to be behind the eight ball when it comes to doseage." What were you dosing? How frequently were you dosing, and how long did you maintain that protocol?

 

[Ty1on73]

It sounds like you don't want to deal with pinning. One option that was posed to me was Testosterone pellets that are placed in the gluts every few months. I personally didn't even consider this, in fact my first question was "Well how do you take them out if I have an adverse reaction?" my doctor jokingly responded with What do you think about self injections?... Anyway if shots are not your thing, research and ask the others about pellets. It maybe an alternative that will suit your active life style. good luck.

 

[Vince]

My protocol is simple, I inject testosterone and HCG every 3 1/2 days. You can also get a script for donating blood.

 

[Ty1on73]

My protocol is simple, I inject testosterone and HCG every 3 1/2 days. You can also get a script for donating blood.

Same here Vince, My protocol is currently simple- I was just reading about "backfilling the pathways" and was so confused...

 

[Fireproof]

It sounds like you don't want to deal with pinning. One option that was posed to me was Testosterone pellets that are placed in the gluts every few months. I personally didn't even consider this, in fact my first question was "Well how do you take them out if I have an adverse reaction?" my doctor jokingly responded with What do you think about self injections?... Anyway if shots are not your thing, research and ask the others about pellets. It maybe an alternative that will suit your active life style. good luck.

Apologies for the coming rant, but I have to warn people...
Highly highly DISCOURAGE anyone from going with pellets. I tried it for a couple years (before finding this site, and Defy Medical) - and it did not work well for a variety of reasons:

1. It really is a minor surgical procedure. They numb your butt with shots, then make an incision, then jab a big long probe thing in there to insert 10-15 pellets based on what you need.
- I ended up with a lot of scar tissue over the 2 years - making it harder and harder to insert the pellets. I can't imagine doing this for the rest of my life.
- I also got a BAD infection once that turned my whole butt cheek red and swollen and had to express puss and junk out of it twice daily in the shower. It was a mess and took 2 different antibiotics to clear up.

2. The "peaks and valleys" of your test levels are so severe that the negatives outweighed the positives. Since the pellets take about 4-5 months to "dissolve / absorb" and it's not linear, you end up with a huge spike and then periods of very low test before you get your next pellets...
- 4 weeks after insertion - i would measure at 1600-1900 Total Test. Felt AWESOME in terms of muscle fullness, strength in gym, etc. But the side effects where terrible - Acne (back, butt, and shoulder) majorly broke out. Estrogen levels spiked even in spite of high AI usage. Bloating around my ankles was apparent.
- So I felt "great" for about 1 month. Pretty good for 1 month. (Both of those months with sides, and now taking more meds to control estrogen and acne). And then months 3 and 4 were not good, where I exhibited low-test symptoms again. But nothing you can do with pellets - too soon to insert more - so you just deal with it. Then in month 5 - start the cycle over again.

PLEASE don't even consider it.

 

[PAUL-E]

If you felt good with the HCG I would do that with a little lower dose of testosterone 2x 0r 3x a week to see if the lower more frequent dosing would help with RBC/Hematocrit. I haven't heard anything good about the pellets and since you have a family and are active I wouldn't recommend the gel. Test with HCG seem to be the best and most cost effective option to me. Good luck and welcome to excel male

 

[Specialk]

SpecialK

I read your post and I think I know what you are asking but I am not sure. Do you want suggestions that are not TRT related to feel better/ Can you please summarize in a few sentences what your specific question is? Or are you wanting to know if there are better HPGA reset protocols?

I apologize for the lack of clarity, I was sort of writing freestyle just letting it flow.

Yes I was wondering A. Is there a better protocol than the one by Dr. Schally since I've done two cycles of that without an acceptable response or B. Should I hang in there and keep doing the protocol. I read here by someone a few weeks ago, that they achieved hormonal autonomy (for lack of a better phrase) after the third time in a row on the same protocol i mentioned in the post. [ 1000 iu HCG concurrent with 20mg/dad Tamoxifen and Tamoxifen continued for two weeks after last dose of HCG ]

Also, basically wondering if anyone had any experience with a situation like mine (decades on TRT and wanting to not be on it).

I think you should consider TRT again, this time with a cutting edge protocol behind it. And do injections, twice a week at least. I know you've had lots of experience, but I believe you can get to a steady state with the right, personalized protocol and you won't be behind the 8-ball all the time, as you said.

I've tried every "cutting edge" protocol. If you do not know your physical or stress requirements ahead of time (who does) then you can't push very hard without having to adjust dosage constantly (basically you have to try and mimic your entire Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Gonadal, Adrenal...etc system) and you just cannot do it as well. Or I should say I cannot do it as well.

My doc is very experienced with TRT and he's basically saying you have choice A or B, pick one. A would be doing what you describe (been there done that for a long time) and I am sick of injections so poking myself 3 times a week is completely out of the question. So that only leaves gels or creams. Pellets are also out of the question as my friends experience with pellets was very similar to the post above by FIREPROOF. Plus have you ever played Brazilian Jiu Jitsu? Pellets anywhere on your body would not work.

Which brings up another point. I spoke to a respected pharmacist about this issue of being behind the 8 ball with respect to dosage (or to put it another way, chasing your tail) and he said it's becuase you muscle is bascially just acting as a sponge for the oil based testosterone release, well if you squeeze the sponge a gazillion times a day (jiu jitsu, wrestling, grappling of any kind) you are going to squeeze out all your medication and be too high and then too low unless you are willing to inject daily, which I am not.

So it brings me back to creams or gels and I really just want to get my supposedly functional system working on it's own. I don't need to have 900 ng/dl levels , I'd be ok with 700 (as I found my feel good zone was around 700-900) less was increasingly crummy as was more.

Apologies for the coming rant, but I have to warn people...
Highly highly DISCOURAGE anyone from going with pellets. I tried it for a couple years (before finding this site, and Defy Medical) - and it did not work well for a variety of reasons:
.........

PLEASE don't even consider it.

Couldn't agree more. My good friend had a similar experience.

... Test with HCG seem to be the best and most cost effective option to me. Good luck and welcome to excel male

RE: Test with HCG, I really don't understand the point of that. If you're going to commit to life on exogenous T, why mess with HCG, I'm not vain about my nugget size and I definitely am not having any more kids. Even when I was on 0.5 - 0.8 ml /week my nuggets didn't get THAT small. And I don't want to go straight HCG for life because that is an every other day shot or every third day, I've already given myself over 1000+ shots over the years, I'm done with shots.

I really wish that inhaler would have worked out. BUT really I wish I wouldn't have started when I didn't need to. If they would have given me a PCT protocol decades ago, I might not even be in this situation. Yet I am...

Anyone else find success in PCT after decades of TRT?

 

[PAUL-E]

RE: Test with HCG, I really don't understand the point of that. If you're going to commit to life on exogenous T, why mess with HCG, I'm not vain about my nugget size and I definitely am not having any more kids. Even when I was on 0.5 - 0.8 ml /week my nuggets didn't get THAT small. And I don't want to go straight HCG for life because that is an every other day shot or every third day, I've already given myself over 1000+ shots over the years, I'm done with shots.

I really wish that inhaler would have worked out. BUT really I wish I wouldn't have started when I didn't need to. If they would have given me a PCT protocol decades ago, I might not even be in this situation. Yet I am...

Anyone else find success in PCT after decades of TRT?

HCG can help with more than nugget size myself I was on TRT for over a year without HCG I recently started it and so far I noticed it has help mood and libido.
I would recommend giving defy a call explain your situation and see if they have a option that would work for you good luck

 

[Specialk]

HCG can help with more than nugget size myself I was on TRT for over a year without HCG I recently started it and so far I noticed it has help mood and libido.
I would recommend giving defy a call explain your situation and see if they have a option that would work for you good luck

I don't want to inject anymore. Do they have an HCG cream or Testosterone + HCG cream ? Plus it seems like overkill. I've never had a libido problem while on T or mood issue on T, unless my dose was too small or too large... so for me, adding more things seems like overkill.

As far as Defy goes, my doc would let me do anything I wanted within medical reasonability. He wouldn't let me harm myself.

 

[PAUL-E]

I think HCG has to be injected so if your fine without I understand. This type of thing is what defy does with hundreds if not thousands of guys I would trust there experience and opinion I think they might be able to do peer to peer with your doctor and make suggestions otherwise I hope a more knowledgeable member on here could offer better advise whatever you decide I wish you luck and keep us updated

 

[CoastWatcher]

I don't want to inject anymore. Do they have an HCG cream or Testosterone + HCG cream ? Plus it seems like overkill. I've never had a libido problem while on T or mood issue on T, unless my dose was too small or too large... so for me, adding more things seems like overkill.

As far as Defy goes, my doc would let me do anything I wanted within medical reasonability. He wouldn't let me harm myself.

No delivery mode for HCG other than injections. I use it, but "feel" nothing as a result. I maintain it because the arguments about backfilling hormonal pathways made sense to me, but if you don't wish to inject, that settles that. Like you, I am fortunate enough to have confidence in my own, local doctor. We are unusual, however.

 

[PAUL-E]

I have a local DR as well and I'm happy with my care. But it's nice to have someone that is willing to work with you and be open to suggestion, however, in more complicated situations. I would feel it would be more prudent to seek advice from a source that had a lot of related experience(like how you came to excel male). I would encourage you to read through the stickies - maybe you will find something you can discus with your DR. if not I would encourage you to use the resources available.