Genuine question on pituitary shutdown

[Harshad Sankhe]

AAS abuse can cause Secondary Hypogonadism?
But is there not a single example where Long term high HCG dosage (usually used for fertility purpose) has caused Secondary Hypogonadism.

just asking question as layman. If HPTA doesn't know exogenous testosterone from endogenous testosterone simulated by hCG, then why AAS abuse can cause shutdown but HCG can't considering both suppresses natural LH levels?

 

[eeY]

Do you got any sources for the claims? I'd like to see some data on the hcg guys.

 

[Harshad Sankhe]

I am not making any claim. I am just asking a general question

 

[johndoesmith]

I am not making any claim. I am just asking a general question

It seems like you're making the claim that HPTA suppression is less on hCG than it is on TRT.

So, AFAIK, that isn't the case, and I doubt many will agree that it is. Until that claim is substantiated we cannot speculate on it.

 

[Harshad Sankhe]

If HPTA suppression does occur with HCG why fertility doctor prescribe higher dosage of HCG 1000-5000 iu/week for 6-12 months

 

[johndoesmith]

If HPTA suppression does occur with HCG why fertility doctor prescribe higher dosage of HCG 1000-5000 iu/week for 6-12 months

Well, hCG will stimulate testosterone production and spermatogenesis so it works as long as you continue hCG.

Once you stop, though, all of that will stop.

 

[Harshad Sankhe]

Yes but after stopping HCG ,LH/FSH levels comes back to original value , whereas it is not guaranteed after long term AAS usage ,that what my point/or question is.

 

[eeY]

Yes but after stopping HCG ,LH/FSH levels comes back to original value , whereas it is not guaranteed after long term AAS usage ,that what my point/or question is.

How do you know that? Can you post a link to pubmed or wherever you read that?

 

[Harshad Sankhe]

Brother I am rephrasing my Question -
There have been cases where bodybuilders
used AAS just for 4-6 months and it caused Pituitary shutdown but normal man
seeking fertility used high dosage of HCG for 24 months but still no shutdown". In
short, at some point of time Steroid cause shutdown but HCG does not even
though both of them suppresses LH during course of their treatment

 

[johndoesmith]

Brother I am rephrasing my Question -
There have been cases where bodybuilders
used AAS just for 4-6 months and it caused Pituitary shutdown but normal man
seeking fertility used high dosage of HCG for 24 months but still no shutdown". In
short, at some point of time Steroid cause shutdown but HCG does not even
though both of them suppresses LH during course of their treatment

What cases? The HPTA doesn't know exogenous testosterone from endogenous testosterone simulated by hCG.

It see senses testosterone and the estradiol that is aromatized from it.

You're going to have to show us where these cases are.

 

[Harshad Sankhe]

You agree that AAS abuse can cause Secondary Hypogonadism?
But is there a single example where Long term high HCG dosage (usually used for fertility purpose) has caused Secondary Hypogonadism?

I am not trying to prove anything but just asking question as layman. If HPTA doesn't know exogenous testosterone from endogenous testosterone simulated by hCG, then why AAS abuse can cause shutdown but HCG can't?

 

[Harshad Sankhe]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23764075/

CONCLUSIONS: Prior anabolic androgenic steroid
use is common in young men who seek
treatment for symptomatic hypogonadism and
anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism is the
most common etiology of profound
hypogonadism. These findings suggest that it is
necessary to refocus the approach to evaluation
and treatment paradigms in young hypogonadal
men.

Now, I am yet to see a single example of HCG induced Secondary Hypogonadism (despite fact that both HCG/AAS suppresses natural LH/FSH levels for long time)

 

[johndoesmith]

You agree that AAS abuse can cause Secondary Hypogonadism?
But is there a single example where Long term high HCG dosage (usually used for fertility purpose) has caused Secondary Hypogonadism?

I am not trying to prove anything but just asking question as layman. If HPTA doesn't know exogenous testosterone from endogenous testosterone simulated by hCG, then why AAS abuse can cause shutdown but HCG can't?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23764075/

CONCLUSIONS: Prior anabolic androgenic steroid
use is common in young men who seek
treatment for symptomatic hypogonadism and
anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism is the
most common etiology of profound
hypogonadism. These findings suggest that it is
necessary to refocus the approach to evaluation
and treatment paradigms in young hypogonadal
men.

Now, I am yet to see a single example of HCG induced Secondary Hypogonadism (despite fact that both HCG/AAS suppresses natural LH/FSH levels for long time)

I am not sure what you're asking at this point.

You're saying that hCG mono therapy doesn't cause HPTA shut down when it's well known that it does, and you are using a study of secondary hypogonadism in AAS users as evidence of this?

You're right, there isn't much evidence that hCG does cause shut down. It's not very well studied.

The only proof I can offer you is to look through this website for guys who are on hCG mono. Dr Saya mentions it at one point if that counts for you.

Other than that I'm not sure what to offer you.

 

[johndoesmith]

Actually, I found one study so far, I'm on mobile.

http://dabamirror.sci-hub.cc/bb02d49bcc91f2c0379a8ec4a94af1cc/cowan1991.pdf

It's a Russian site I use to get articles that are paywalled.


http://imgur.com/7ik30Uv

 

[Re-Ride]

I'm clear on what Harshad is asking. This is a very good question. Whether it is internet myth or fact many do harbor a belief that hCG is less refractory to the axis. hCG is often used in PCT restart. It is used to stimulate the Leydigs not the pituitary. We know that axis shut down is a complicated business. Certain AAS are much harder on the axis than others. hCG is not an AAS. If I were to guess, and that'ts all I can do, I'd say re-start is likely easier coming off hCG than an AAS but I don't know why. Most here who start hCG mono do not attempt any restart they progress to TRT.

Looking back on my own experience there was no discussion of the axis nor a concept of restart in the 80's when I was first put on hCG briefly. I did recover somewhat naturally. Then again just before starting here I made a partial spontaneous recovery from gel (no hCG). If I could do it over I would have tried a proper re-start following my initial very positive resent results with hCG mono. But again this was never discussed. Had it been I would have had anecdotal fb for you but I don't.

 

[johndoesmith]

I'm clear on what Harshad is asking. This is a very good question. Whether it is internet myth or fact many do harbor a belief that hCG is less refractory to the axis. hCG is often used in PCT restart. It is used to stimulate the Leydigs not the pituitary. We know that axis shut down is a complicated business. Certain AAS are much harder on the axis than others. hCG is not an AAS. If I were to guess, and that'ts all I can do, I'd say re-start is likely easier coming off hCG than an AAS but I don't know why. Most here who start hCG mono do not attempt any restart they progress to TRT.

Looking back on my own experience there was no discussion of the axis nor a concept of restart in the 80's when I was first put on hCG briefly. I did recover somewhat naturally. Then again just before starting here I made a partial spontaneous recovery from gel (no hCG). If I could do it over I would have tried a proper re-start following my initial very positive resent results with hCG mono. But again this was never discussed. Had it been I would have had anecdotal fb for you but I don't.

Okay I see what you're saying.

It could be due to hCG results in lower testosterone levels than injecting pure test. Also, hCG clears much faster than esterized testosterone which takes at least 3 weeks to clear fully.

I haven't seen anything about hCG being easier to restart from. As you see in that picture I linked it does produce shut down.

Although they used 5000IU which isn't even close to what's used in hCG mono.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Now, I am yet to see a single example of HCG induced Secondary Hypogonadism (despite fact that both HCG/AAS suppresses natural LH/FSH levels for long time)

I've seen quite a few men with HCG induced secondary Hypogonadism. You won't read about it very often because HCG monotherapy isn't as common as AAS use or TRT (and consequently HCG induced secondary Hypogonadism or self-treated TRT induced secondary Hypogonadism).

 

[Wean]

I have induced secondary hypogonadism and all I used was hcg at 250 iu for 2 weeks...still haven't recovered....i also have varicoceles being operated on soon

 

[lexer]

Hcg mimics LH so using hcg, the pituitary will slow or stop natural production of LH. Since the pituitary senses adequate or high levels of circulating testosterone due to hcg use, it slows or stops production.
when you stop hcg, like testosterone, it takes a while for the pituitary to realize its time to go back to work again..
also, excess estrogen causes the pituitary to stop production. If estrogen levels are too high, the pituitary slows or stops production of T. Why? The body knows the T converts to estrogen and the only way to lower estrogen is to reduce the level of T.
With anabolics, there is still a certain level of androgenic activity, even with anavar or primobolan.
we have androgen receptors throughout our body including the hypothalamus. The body cant tell the difference between an androgen from anavar and andregenic activity from testosterone. It recognizes as the same. What happens? Again, the pituitary slows or stops production of T . To what degree depends both on dosage and duration.
hope that helps.

 

[Wean]

Hcg mimics LH so using hcg, the pituitary will slow or stop natural production of LH. Since the pituitary senses adequate or high levels of circulating testosterone due to hcg use, it slows or stops production.
when you stop hcg, like testosterone, it takes a while for the pituitary to realize its time to go back to work again..
also, excess estrogen causes the pituitary to stop production. If estrogen levels are too high, the pituitary slows or stops production of T. Why? The body knows the T converts to estrogen and the only way to lower estrogen is to reduce the level of T.
With anabolics, there is still a certain level of androgenic activity, even with anavar or primobolan.
we have androgen receptors throughout our body including the hypothalamus. The body cant tell the difference between an androgen from anavar and andregenic activity from testosterone. It recognizes as the same. What happens? Again, the pituitary slows or stops production of T . To what degree depends both on dosage and duration.
hope that helps.

Well I used it for 2 to 3 weeks at 250 iu eod and I have had low lh levels since and it's been 6 months since I took it and still low t levels but I also developed a varicocele right after I quit using it so idk if the hcg caused my problem or the varicocele or both