Cold Turkey Restart - Update

[TLawyer]

Hello all:

Started TRT in December 2019 and stopped on June 5, 2020 to try a cold turkey restart.

My last set of labs just before starting in December 2019 and my labs from August 7, 2020, are attached.

Overall, I haven't felt awful since stopping, although not like I want to climb a mountain. I have been working out pretty hard and consistently (weights and cardio) since stopping in June and have dropped about 12 pounds and 3 or 4 percent body fat (currently at 23%, 6 foot, 203). Lifts have been ok and generally progressing, although joints have been hurting more.

Given that, a little disappointed and surprised at my T levels. Under usual amount of stress and I'm lucky to get 7-8 hours of sleep, but I thought I'd at least be up to my old level (since I had the same stress level and lack of sleep then).

I suppose I should give it a bit longer to really judge the success of the restart, perhaps try and get down to the 13-15% body fat level and see where I am then. Or call it a day and hop back on?

Thoughts?

 

[TLawyer]

43 years old

 

[goolapsh]

any update? I think you just need to wait a little bit longer and you will be back right where you started.

 

[TLawyer]

any update? I think you just need to wait a little bit longer and you will be back right where you started.

Feeling better over the past few days. I don't have a blood test since my lpost, so I can't say whether that's because my numbers have improved over the past 2 weeks. I did talk with Defy, and I'm going to try enclomiphene (for t-levels) and ibutamoren (I have some nagging golfer's elbow in both arms, so hoping that will help with recovery) and see where that gets me. I am going to get new labs just before starting to see where I am so I have a comparison and see what I came back to naturally going cold turkey. My FSH and LH tested at 2.9 and 3.2, respectively, in November just before starting TRT, so there looks like some room to grow there. I was in the 320-385 range in total T on a few tests just before starting TRT, so I am hoping that even a modest boost would put me at a good level. I know that clomid/enclomiphene doesn't have a whole lot of positives on the message boards, but Defy told me that they do have a good number of patients who do well (but perhaps just aren't vocal about it). We'll see. Goal is still to get down to a low body fat (which I've continued making good progress doing), but want to see if I can get a boost. If there were to be any E2 issues from the enclomiphene, hopefully the low body fat can help combat that.

 

[goolapsh]

Feeling better over the past few days. I don't have a blood test since my lpost, so I can't say whether that's because my numbers have improved over the past 2 weeks. I did talk with Defy, and I'm going to try enclomiphene (for t-levels) and ibutamoren (I have some nagging golfer's elbow in both arms, so hoping that will help with recovery) and see where that gets me. I am going to get new labs just before starting to see where I am so I have a comparison and see what I came back to naturally going cold turkey. My FSH and LH tested at 2.9 and 3.2, respectively, in November just before starting TRT, so there looks like some room to grow there. I was in the 320-385 range in total T on a few tests just before starting TRT, so I am hoping that even a modest boost would put me at a good level. I know that clomid/enclomiphene doesn't have a whole lot of positives on the message boards, but Defy told me that they do have a good number of patients who do well (but perhaps just aren't vocal about it). We'll see. Goal is still to get down to a low body fat (which I've continued making good progress doing), but want to see if I can get a boost. If there were to be any E2 issues from the enclomiphene, hopefully the low body fat can help combat that.

You and I are in a similar boat except i was on trt for two years. I’m taking clomid now but will probably extend my time taking it for at least a few months (whatever dr saya recommends once I talk to him). That is a bitch of a drug at first but once you get over the hump it’s not bad. Why did he prescribe Enclomiphene over Clomiphene?

 

[TLawyer]

You and I are in a similar boat except i was on trt for two years. I’m taking clomid now but will probably extend my time taking it for at least a few months (whatever dr saya recommends once I talk to him). That is a bitch of a drug at first but once you get over the hump it’s not bad. Why did he prescribe Enclomiphene over Clomiphene?

I actually spoke with one of his PAs, Melissa. I mentioned Enclomiphene by name given what I've read about it (possible less side effects than Clomid), so we didn't really debate between the two. What issues did you experience with Clomid when you first started?

 

[goolapsh]

You and I are in a similar boat except i was on trt for two years. I’m taking clomid now but will probably extend my time taking it for at least a few months (whatever dr saya recommends once I talk to him). That is a bitch of a drug at first but once you get over the hump it’s not bad. Why did he prescribe Enclomiphene over Clomiphene?

I actually spoke with one of his PAs, Melissa. I mentioned Enclomiphene by name given what I've read about it (possible less side effects than Clomid), so we didn't really debate between the two. What issues did you experience with Clomid when you first started?

the first two days extreme anxiety and irritability. That seems to have calmed down now although there’s still some in the background. Just ride the initial feeling out. It’s not fun but only lasts a couple days. Did your PA mention anything about success rates to you? Just curious why did you decide to stop trt and would you consider getting back on?

 

[TLawyer]

the first two days extreme anxiety and irritability. That seems to have calmed down now although there’s still some in the background. Just ride the initial feeling out. It’s not fun but only lasts a couple days. Did your PA mention anything about success rates to you? Just curious why did you decide to stop trt and would you consider getting back on?

She didn't give a percentage, although I think I read a thread on here where Dr. Saya thought it was in the 30% - 50% success rate range. I feel like I jumped the gun with TRT initially - I was low in my labs, but not ridiculously low, and it was during a bad stretch of crappy sleep and stress. After going through the ups and downs with TRT (and it was only 6 months' worth, so I admittedly wasn't dialed in yet or give it enough time), just decided to see if I could improve things naturally or with enclomiphene. If I can't or feel like crap, I'm willing to go on TRT for life, but I didn't want to jump on for life without at least giving it a try otherwise.

 

[TLawyer]

She didn't give a percentage, although I think I read a thread on here where Dr. Saya thought it was in the 30% - 50% success rate range. I feel like I jumped the gun with TRT initially - I was low in my labs, but not ridiculously low, and it was during a bad stretch of crappy sleep and stress. After going through the ups and downs with TRT (and it was only 6 months' worth, so I admittedly wasn't dialed in yet or give it enough time), just decided to see if I could improve things naturally or with enclomiphene. If I can't or feel like crap, I'm willing to go on TRT for life, but I didn't want to jump on for life without at least giving it a try otherwise.

I took another set of labs just before starting the enclomiphene and ibutamoren this past Thursday.

Total Testosterone: 280 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 6.6 pg/ml
DHT: 19 ng/dl
LH: 3.5 mlU/ml
IGF-1: 223 ng/ml
E2 (sensitive): 16.6 pg/ml
SHBG: 17.2 nmol/L

So these results would have been 13 weeks since my last HCG/Cypionate dosage, cold turkey during all of those 13 weeks. Pretty much the same levels I had 3 weeks earlier, although total testosterone was 40 points higher. Not sure if continuing cold turkey would have seen a gradual improvement (my total measured about 380 a month before starting TRT, so I didn't get back to that level - I would say that the rest of my levels pre-TRT were about the same as they are currently), but I'm on the enclomiphene and ibutmoren now. Not feeling like Superman, but it's early, and I suppose I may feel a little bit better from a week ago. Time will tell.

 

[goolapsh]

I took another set of labs just before starting the enclomiphene and ibutamoren this past Thursday.

Total Testosterone: 280 ng/dl
Free Testosterone: 6.6 pg/ml
DHT: 19 ng/dl
LH: 3.5 mlU/ml
IGF-1: 223 ng/ml
E2 (sensitive): 16.6 pg/ml
SHBG: 17.2 nmol/L

So these results would have been 13 weeks since my last HCG/Cypionate dosage, cold turkey during all of those 13 weeks. Pretty much the same levels I had 3 weeks earlier, although total testosterone was 40 points higher. Not sure if continuing cold turkey would have seen a gradual improvement (my total measured about 380 a month before starting TRT, so I didn't get back to that level - I would say that the rest of my levels pre-TRT were about the same as they are currently), but I'm on the enclomiphene and ibutmoren now. Not feeling like Superman, but it's early, and I suppose I may feel a little bit better from a week ago. Time will tell.

I have almost the same exact numbers as you. My pre Trt was the same total t as yours 350-400. My shbg is same (~16). Im 38. Started when I was 36. I was on shots first then cream but I stayed on the cream for the last year or so with unremarkable results (granted I wasn’t working with defy I was going to my primary care who doesn’t really know much about trt). Actually I’m feeling pretty good on clomid as I approach my third week (I’ve taken 25 mg daily for about 15 days). Libido/sex function isn’t that great but that may take more time. If this works for me I may consider long term therapy (assuming i restore sex function and have no side effects that keep me from taking it). My consult with dr saya is Wednesday. This will be my first meeting with him. I had the clomid pills handy from another physician. My thinking is that I’m not really aiming for a restart at this point. I’ve seen too many people stop clomid and their levels go right back down. And I think personally I wouldn’t want to feel the way I did at 350-400 if I even get there again naturally. So I’m considering something more long term personally. If I had to do trt again it would be the shots though having done both methods but maybe tweak some other things and have actual guidance from an experienced Practitioner. So overall feeling pretty good right now going into my third week on clomid 25 mg daily.