Injecting Testosterone Propionate on a Daily Basis

[JasonOnTRT]

After 6 months on daily T Cyp I felt that there was still a lot of room for improvement for me. I still just wasn't "feeling" it much. So I switched from Cypionate to Propionate. Having been on it for a couple of weeks now, I have a significantly higher/consistent energy level throughout the day. No afternoon slump and getting easily distracted like before. Libido seems a little higher too. I can't wait to get some tests in a few weeks and see what everything looks like.


I use a 30g 5/16 insulin syringe and inject 0.18mg every morning in abdomen or shoulders. It does not sting like I've read practically everywhere, maybe because of the small volume.


Anyone have similar or differing experiences, especially with SHBG on the lower end?

[Vince]

Jason thanks for starting this thread. I'm also interested in using propionate for my daily injection. What pharmacy and Clinic/doctor are you using and are you located in the USA.

[Guided_by_Voices]

I use prop also and inject from .1 to .12 per day. I have never used cyp for an extended period so I can't really compare, but I think prop is unfairly maligned. I started with prop because the short ester should make it much easier to get dialed in and if I overdid the dosage it should correct quickly, both of which have seemed to be true. Also it seems to have better reviews for sexual benefits. My SHGB is high so we are different in that regard, but my guess is that many who have a hard time getting to their sweet spot would have been better off starting with prop and then moving to cyp if there was some reason to, rather than starting with what IMO is the most complicated to get dialed in due to the difficulty in getting to a steady state based on symptoms. The only significant injection issues I've had happened when I injected into my leg, so I now inject the same as you.

[JasonOnTRT]

I don't inject in my legs much either. I can feel it more than shoulders and abdomen so I avoid legs when possible.

Vince, I'm in Ohio and a patient at Defy. I get everything from Empower and the Propionate comes as 100mg/ml in a 10ml vial. So I went from 20mg daily Cypionate to 18mg daily Propionate because there are a few more mg of T in the Propionate ester.

It has only been a couple of weeks, but I feel like I have the energy of my younger self right now. In the past, I was still tired and lethargic in the afternoon even with coffee. Now I'm sitting here (supposed to be writing code) and I'm ready to do anything and my mind is clear. It will be interesting to see what the tests reveal.

I guess even with these tiny changes I should probably wait a couple more weeks for everything to stabilize before I check.

[mopes]

Nice to see some accounts of daily prop use. Look forward to following along.

[Vince Carter]

Very interesting I'm listening in, a change has been on my mind, low SHBG and daily's already but had been thinking more with Enanthate than Prop.

[JasonOnTRT]

Very interesting I'm listening in, a change has been on my mind, low SHBG and daily's already but had been thinking more with Enanthate than Prop.

Empower can also compound multiple esters together so that you get both slow and quick release.

[Tom Larabee]

I too am going to be following this one, as I have just started daily Test E last week and was wondering if Prop will help reduce my need for AI even more.

We are trying to do this without AI, hence the daily, but I am thinking after 2 months of this I might ask for Prop if my E numbers keep edging down but not enough.

I am really sensitive to AI's and can easily kill my E in a short period of time even on low dose once a week, so I am using DIM now and daily T.

Without Anastrazole my E edges up into the low 100's but I don't get symptoms other than greasy skin, and water weight. Using DIM we got it down some but not enough yet, so we are changing to daily T and increasing the DIM, so I will wait for the 2 months and see where it goes then and maybe ask to change to this if it continues to go down in 8 weeks.

[CoastWatcher]

After nearly two years on daily enanthate, I'm not interested in a change - I feel great and all is well balanced. But am fascinated with discovering how this plays out for others.

[Vince]

Hi Jason, I know it hasn't been very long. But I was wondering if there were any more updates on your daily injections of testosterone propionate?

[JasonOnTRT]

I am still doing good. I got my lab draw for a lot of tests on Tuesday, but I'm still waiting on the results for the hormone-related tests. My HCT dropped 1 point back to 47. I think I've already made up my mind that I don't want to go back to Cypionate, but I am still very interested in seeing all of the numbers. I will post a comparison once I get everything. Hopefully early next week.

[user_joe]

I think something interesting to see would be the different e2 numbers. I've read conflicting information. People will claim over and over that the ester does not effect aromitization, but if you follow people reporting on their steroid cycles they consistently report less water retention and need for ai with short esters. I had read that faster acting esters are more likely to convert to dht than e2. Considering results with gels and creams that could make sense. Daily prop "in theory" sounds like the way to go. Curious if you will have blood tests to compare.

[JasonOnTRT]

I think something interesting to see would be the different e2 numbers. I've read conflicting information. People will claim over and over that the ester does not effect aromitization, but if you follow people reporting on their steroid cycles they consistently report less water retention and need for ai with short esters. I had read that faster acting esters are more likely to convert to dht than e2. Considering results with gels and creams that could make sense. Daily prop "in theory" sounds like the way to go. Curious if you will have blood tests to compare.

I have read that too. I didn't feel as though I had a lot of water retention on Cypionate, but my wedding ring is just a little more loose now. And I'm by no means muscular, but my arms look slightly more defined. So maybe there is some truth to that. Since the faster ester gets it in you quickly and then it's gone, maybe there is less time for aromatization and/or 5-ar. Whereas daily Cypionate keeps you at max levels up until you stop. So the testosterone is the same of course but the rate of delivery is quite different.

I have Total+Free T, E2, and DHT between daily Cypionate, daily Propionate, and bi-weekly Cypionate. It's not a direct compare because my Anastrozole dose was changed but will hopefully still be helpful.

[Vince Carter]

I've read that Prop will hit you harder (their words) because the short life of the ester but it's very closely the same mg of Test, which makes sense if you're using ~25 of Cyp it seems to be 24/48hrs to peak and then downward to the ~6 day half-life but Prop would peak much sooner in it's 2 days half-life.

[Bud Black]

Following as well...very interesting. Makes total sense if we could go daily to mimic natural system output.

[JasonOnTRT]

Sorry for the delay. LabCorp still does not have the Sensitive Estradiol results yet.

[madman]

I too am going to be following this one, as I have just started daily Test E last week and was wondering if Prop will help reduce my need for AI even more.

We are trying to do this without AI, hence the daily, but I am thinking after 2 months of this I might ask for Prop if my E numbers keep edging down but not enough.

I am really sensitive to AI's and can easily kill my E in a short period of time even on low dose once a week, so I am using DIM now and daily T.

Without Anastrazole my E edges up into the low 100's but I don't get symptoms other than greasy skin, and water weight. Using DIM we got it down some but not enough yet, so we are changing to daily T and increasing the DIM, so I will wait for the 2 months and see where it goes then and maybe ask to change to this if it continues to go down in 8 weeks.

Small daily doses of testosterone will aid in lowering e conversion in some, switching to prop daily low dose will not make much of a difference as prop ester is cleaved off quicker hence test levels spike faster which is more prone to e2 conversion albeit would only matter if one was injecting higher doses of prop. Suspension is notorious for aromatizing quickly as their is no ester and it hits the system quickest.

[madman]

Following as well...very interesting. Makes total sense if we could go daily to mimic natural system output.

Daily will be as close as you can get but you will never mirror the natural circadian rhythm with injectable as you will achieve a steady state with minor variations in peaks/valleys as oppose to the natural daily fluctuation of a healthy young male.

[JasonOnTRT]

Finally, the test results are back. Here is a comparison of lab results along with subjective changes. For reference, I am 38 years old. My SHBG is currently at 17.4 nmol/l, down from 21.9 last summer.

10/25/2016
- T Cyp 80mg every 3.5 days (Shallow IM, 1/2" 28g insulin syringe)
- Anastrozole/DIM 0.5mg/200mg every 3.5 days
- HCG 250IU every other day
- DHEA 25mg twice daily

Total Testosterone: 584 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone: 21.1 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol LC/MS: 10.7 (8.0-35.0)
DHT: 41 (30-85)

Feels like I'm injecting water. Some weight loss with heavy cardio. Body fat is 26.9%. Minimal to no changes in muscle. Energy/libido start dropping around noon and gone by 5-6pm. Pretty bad acne on back and shoulders. The AI obviously crashed my E2, that certainly doesn't help things but I felt the exact same over the summer as when E2 was in the 20's and 30's, so that wasn't the determining factor for not really feeling anything. I do feel better than not on TRT though. I stopped the AI for a couple of months after seeing these results. Over last summer/fall I had also tried 60, 70, and 75mg BIW before being increased to 80mg BIW that you see in these results. Every time the dose went up, Total T would come out lower and lower.

12/08/2016
- T Cyp 20mg every day (Sub-Q, 5/16" 30g insulin syringe)
- HCG 250IU every other day
- DHEA 25mg twice daily

Total Testosterone: 999 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone: 22 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol LC/MS: 39.4 (8.0-35.0)
DHT: 47 (30-85)

A little bit more energy. No change in libido. Not really tired until 2-3pm and then energy drops off pretty fast. Less body fat (23.3%) and some muscle definition starting to appear. Still have acne, sometimes down to my biceps. I went from wearing large to medium shirts. Free T % is actually much lower now, but this is a small improvement.

4/25/2017
- T Prop 18mg every day (Sub-Q, 5/16" 30g insulin syringe)
- Anastrozole 0.125mg every 3.5 days
- HCG 250IU every other day
- DHEA 25mg twice daily

Total Testosterone: 712 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone: 17.1 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol LC/MS: 20.9 (8.0-35.0)
DHT: 28 (30-85)

My energy level has definitely increased and there is maybe a little libido increase. I feel a lot more alert. Energy level stays high until 10-11pm, and I don't tire nearly as quickly doing activities like yard work and exercise. I feel like this is more like my younger self. Acne better. Body fat is lower (19.7%) and muscle definition has increased. There is more of a visual change in body composition. Maybe there is some truth to the Cypionate ester causing bloat that I've seen mentioned occasionally. You look at the daily T Cyp results and think that should be a lot better going by the numbers, but that was not te case at all. I just felt numb on T Cyp, even when around 700-800 range.

I've searched all over for lab comparisons involving different esters for guys who just aren't feeling the benefits of TRT that others do. Hopefully this helps some people out who are looking for a comparison. By the way, injecting Propionate does not sting at all in the small amounts that I'm using.

For me though, this raises even more questions. I'm actually a bit surprised at the Propionate results and how Total/Free T are not higher given the faster absorption. I expected much higher FT. There is not a lot of SHBG to bind to, and it obviously isn't converting to DHT or Estradiol. DHT and Estradiol actually fell off a cliff. Albumin is normal. Where is the T going? Maybe I metabolize it so fast that BID injections would be better? Or maybe there is something genetic going on.

[madman]

Finally, the test results are back. Here is a comparison of lab results along with subjective changes. For reference, I am 38 years old. My SHBG is currently at 17.4 nmol/l, down from 21.9 last summer.

10/25/2016
- T Cyp 80mg every 3.5 days (Shallow IM, 1/2" 28g insulin syringe)
- Anastrozole/DIM 0.5mg/200mg every 3.5 days
- HCG 250IU every other day
- DHEA 25mg twice daily

Total Testosterone: 584 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone: 21.1 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol LC/MS: 10.7 (8.0-35.0)
DHT: 41 (30-85)

Feels like I'm injecting water. Some weight loss with heavy cardio. Body fat is 26.9%. Minimal to no changes in muscle. Energy/libido start dropping around noon and gone by 5-6pm. Pretty bad acne on back and shoulders. The AI obviously crashed my E2, that certainly doesn't help things but I felt the exact same over the summer as when E2 was in the 20's and 30's, so that wasn't the determining factor for not really feeling anything. I do feel better than not on TRT though. I stopped the AI for a couple of months after seeing these results. Over last summer/fall I had also tried 60, 70, and 75mg BIW before being increased to 80mg BIW that you see in these results. Every time the dose went up, Total T would come out lower and lower.

12/08/2016
- T Cyp 20mg every day (Sub-Q, 5/16" 30g insulin syringe)
- HCG 250IU every other day
- DHEA 25mg twice daily

Total Testosterone: 999 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone: 22 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol LC/MS: 39.4 (8.0-35.0)
DHT: 47 (30-85)

A little bit more energy. No change in libido. Not really tired until 2-3pm and then energy drops off pretty fast. Less body fat (23.3%) and some muscle definition starting to appear. Still have acne, sometimes down to my biceps. I went from wearing large to medium shirts. Free T % is actually much lower now, but this is a small improvement.

4/25/2017
- T Prop 18mg every day (Sub-Q, 5/16" 30g insulin syringe)
- Anastrozole 0.125mg every 3.5 days
- HCG 250IU every other day
- DHEA 25mg twice daily

Total Testosterone: 712 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone: 17.1 (8.7-25.1)
Estradiol LC/MS: 20.9 (8.0-35.0)
DHT: 28 (30-85)

My energy level has definitely increased and there is maybe a little libido increase. I feel a lot more alert. Energy level stays high until 10-11pm, and I don't tire nearly as quickly doing activities like yard work and exercise. I feel like this is more like my younger self. Acne better. Body fat is lower (19.7%) and muscle definition has increased. There is more of a visual change in body composition. Maybe there is some truth to the Cypionate ester causing bloat that I've seen mentioned occasionally. You look at the daily T Cyp results and think that should be a lot better going by the numbers, but that was not te case at all. I just felt numb on T Cyp, even when around 700-800 range.

I've searched all over for lab comparisons involving different esters for guys who just aren't feeling the benefits of TRT that others do. Hopefully this helps some people out who are looking for a comparison. By the way, injecting Propionate does not sting at all in the small amounts that I'm using.

For me though, this raises even more questions. I'm actually a bit surprised at the Propionate results and how Total/Free T are not higher given the faster absorption. I expected much higher FT. There is not a lot of SHBG to bind to, and it obviously isn't converting to DHT or Estradiol. DHT and Estradiol actually fell off a cliff. Albumin is normal. Where is the T going? Maybe I metabolize it so fast that BID injections would be better? Or maybe there is something genetic going on.

Would have been nice to see the comparison between prop vs cyp everyday without an ai to see how it truly affected your e2. Your lower shbg affects your numbers regarding your total t but your daily cyp inj. numbers are probably higher than your daily prop inj. numbers due to cyps longer acting ester which will cause more overlap- less test is used up quicker and you get more of a build up. Good feedback regarding your protocols.

[Vince]

Jason, now that your estradiol levels look so good, any thoughts on stopping or reducing your AI.

[Vince Carter]

Jason, now that your estradiol levels look so good, any thoughts on stopping or reducing your AI.

According to his post it looks like he dropped the AI in Dec 16

[Vince Carter]

@JasonOnTRT
How many hours post injection was your blood draw? Curious if it was more/less than 24hrs.

[JasonOnTRT]

Jason, now that your estradiol levels look so good, any thoughts on stopping or reducing your AI.

Yes, I stopped taking it about a week ago because I was thinking that it was going to end up lower than it did. If E2 goes up enough that I start feeling any symptoms then I have enough Anastrozole caps left to spot treat it until I can get a refill and proper dose adjustment. I didn't feel any symptoms in the results above even when it was at 39.

In my case it looks like E2 can be controlled really well just by injection frequency. With the Propionate, it is probably too low (along with DHT), and that was only using 1/8mg Anastrozole twice a week. Estradiol improves lipids, offers cardiovascular protection, protects bones, and is essential for libido among other things. So I'm going to try to not lower it for the sake of lowering it in the absence of symptoms and let it find its own balance.

[JasonOnTRT]

@JasonOnTRT
How many hours post injection was your blood draw? Curious if it was more/less than 24hrs.

Less than 24 hours. Here are the collection times.

10/25/2016 07:44am
12/08/2016 07:40am
04/25/2017 07:19am

I always do injections between 8:45-9:00am unless I'm traveling for work. Like madman said it is a fast ester but wow, it is really, really fast for me. I do feel pretty good, but I would like to get FT and DHT back up.

[Vince Carter]

Less than 24 hours. Here are the collection times.

10/25/2016 07:44am
12/08/2016 07:40am
04/25/2017 07:19am

I always do injections between 8:45-9:00am unless I'm traveling for work. Like madman said it is a fast ester but wow, it is really, really fast for me. I do feel pretty good, but I would like to get FT and DHT back up.

Thanks, I suspected you may want a dose bump upward, I had read somewhere that mg/mg Cyp and Prop were very close in strength but you only changed by 2mg. Might want to try upwards of 25mg/Daily.

[Will Brink]

I have read that too. I didn't feel as though I had a lot of water retention on Cypionate, but my wedding ring is just a little more loose now. And I'm by no means muscular, but my arms look slightly more defined. So maybe there is some truth to that. Since the faster ester gets it in you quickly and then it's gone, maybe there is less time for aromatization and/or 5-ar. Whereas daily Cypionate keeps you at max levels up until you stop. So the testosterone is the same of course but the rate of delivery is quite different.

I have Total+Free T, E2, and DHT between daily Cypionate, daily Propionate, and bi-weekly Cypionate. It's not a direct compare because my Anastrozole dose was changed but will hopefully still be helpful.

If someone is intent on doing daily IM/sub Q of T, it makes little sense to use anything but prop. The half life and pharmacokinetics make daily cyp or enanth illogical. 2-3 times per week max with cyp/enanth.

The differences in pharmacokinetics between prop and cyp/enanth might explain some of the effects and I'd expect cyp/enanth used daily to see bother higher TT and E2 all things being equal, but there's scant data there.

Never listen to anything you read on steroids forums where people are discussing (usually anecdotal) effects of steroid stacks. It will only add confusion and disinformation and is a different animal to legit TRT/HRT.

Per usual, if you feel good on that schedule and essential health metrics in line, drive on

- Will @ www.BrinkZone.com

[JasonOnTRT]

Thanks, I suspected you may want a dose bump upward, I had read somewhere that mg/mg Cyp and Prop were very close in strength but you only changed by 2mg. Might want to try upwards of 25mg/Daily.

My next consult with Defy is next week when I'm down there in Tampa, so I'm definitely going to bring that up. Once things stabilize I think it would be neat to see results from a blood draw say 4 hours post injection and then another one 22-23 hours post injection to see what changed and by how much.

[Guided_by_Voices]

FWIW, I tried all sorts of prop protocols such as 40mg every third day, 30 every other day, etc and I arrived, through trial and error based on how I feel at 12mg every day as the best for me. This puts me in the 600-800 TT range and I seem to feel a bit better there than at higher levels, so I wouldn't assume that a higher number will necessarily help although only symptoms will tell. I don't need an AI where I am, although I am experimenting with low doses to see if it helps. I intentionally did not check my blood work when I started so that I would not bias myself about how I felt based on bloodwork.

[Vince Carter]

in 1-2 weeks at my next refill Ill be switching to Propionate @ 26mg/D, change from Cyp 28mg/D