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GreenMachineX

Active Member
Starting to feel revved up again. Ugh.

Just received a couple more pieces to my lab work:

T3 Free: 4.0 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
SHBG: 18 nmol/L 10-50

So both are in range but I'm a little concerned with that free T3. It's been high 3's before years ago, but apparently it's creeping up. It is in range though...could that be screwing me up? To be fair, at one point I was prescribed T3 and Armour at a much higher equivalent dose and I did not struggle with insomnia back then. I had a couple of the typical symptoms though like elevated heart rate, constant sweating, etc and was prescribed a beta blocker at the time as well. On the other hand, that high t3 could explain why I'm super sensitive to ALL supplements.

I'm at a loss and ready to check in to an ER.
 
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Mark Saur

Active Member
Starting to feel revved up again. Ugh.

Just received a couple more pieces to my lab work:

T3 Free: 4.0 pg/mL (2.3-4.2)
SHBG: 18 nmol/L 10-50

So both are in range but I'm a little concerned with that free T3. It's been high 3's before years ago, but apparently it's creeping up. It is in range though...could that be screwing me up? To be fair, at one point I was prescribed T3 and Armour at a much higher equivalent dose and I did not struggle with insomnia back then. I had a couple of the typical symptoms though like elevated heart rate, constant sweating, etc and was prescribed a beta blocker at the time as well. On the other hand, that high t3 could explain why I'm super sensitive to ALL supplements.

I'm at a loss and ready to check in to an ER.
so what are you on for thyroid medication? what beta blocker?
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I wouldn't increase the testosterone dose, given that free T is close to top of range. Your low SHBG is what makes total testosterone relatively lower. Increasing the dose also won't improve your E2/T ratio. But at 0.32% the ratio is still in a normal range of 0.3-0.6%. With these numbers I would try lower dosing for a period to see if it helps, say 20-30% less. If that doesn't help and you still suspect estradiol is too low then you could consider supplementation. It's less common, but a few of us have tried it. Dosing would be tricky since it takes very little to push your level up a lot. You might only need 5-10 mcg of an injectable product. With a transdermal you'd want to apply more like 50-100 mcg of estradiol. I think you can get bi-estrogen cream over the counter, but you'd need to be sure you can measure small enough doses.
Another night wide awake. I don't get it because I slept so well the night before. This time I'm also superstimulated and anxious. Stack chamomile tea, took magnesium and lemon balm to calm down. Barely took the edge off. I now fully believe you that I was wrong about how to handle this. Ill try what you suggested...lower testosterone dosage and I'm going to inject at night now too just in case I am getting wide swings due to my low shbg. That way the peak is at 4-8am or something instead of when I'm going to bed. You said 20-30% less, so if I'm using 10mg, then 7-8mg? Should I skip a couple days to let the level come down faster? Or just skip the morning dose and do it that night?
 
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Cataceous

Super Moderator
... Ill try what you suggested...lower testosterone dosage and I'm going to inject at night now too just in case I am getting wide swings due to my low shbg. That way the peak is at 4-8am or something instead of when I'm going to bed. You said 20-30% less, so if I'm using 10mg, then 7-8mg? Should I skip a couple days to let the level come down faster? Or just skip the morning dose and do it that night?

I'd still expect sleep to be worse with later-day testosterone injections, but it's always possible you'll be one of the exceptions.

The large-scale variations in serum testosterone are driven by the rate at which you absorb the testosterone ester from the injection sites. SHBG does not affect this particular dynamic.

You could certainly skip a day or two to bring down serum levels faster, and 7-8 mg is a reasonable dose to try. But you need to start thinking long-term. Don't link the minutia of how you're feeling on a given day to your dose that day or the day before. Think about how you feel on average over a couple weeks and link that to your TRT dose over the past couple of months. Dose reductions are notoriously difficult, so steel yourself to get through to a point where your body has fully adapted to the changes and you can fairly evaluate the differences.
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I'd still expect sleep to be worse with later-day testosterone injections, but it's always possible you'll be one of the exceptions.

The large-scale variations in serum testosterone are driven by the rate at which you absorb the testosterone ester from the injection sites. SHBG does not affect this particular dynamic.

You could certainly skip a day or two to bring down serum levels faster, and 7-8 mg is a reasonable dose to try. But you need to start thinking long-term. Don't link the minutia of how you're feeling on a given day to your dose that day or the day before. Think about how you feel on average over a couple weeks and link that to your TRT dose over the past couple of months. Dose reductions are notoriously difficult, so steel yourself to get through to a point where your body has fully adapted to the changes and you can fairly evaluate the differences.
You're right. I'll skip at least a day, and resume at 7mg. I went to the ER this morning due to the overstimulation. Had chest tightness and crazy palpitations. All clear but it was a night of hell.
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I'd still expect sleep to be worse with later-day testosterone injections, but it's always possible you'll be one of the exceptions.

The large-scale variations in serum testosterone are driven by the rate at which you absorb the testosterone ester from the injection sites. SHBG does not affect this particular dynamic.

You could certainly skip a day or two to bring down serum levels faster, and 7-8 mg is a reasonable dose to try. But you need to start thinking long-term. Don't link the minutia of how you're feeling on a given day to your dose that day or the day before. Think about how you feel on average over a couple weeks and link that to your TRT dose over the past couple of months. Dose reductions are notoriously difficult, so steel yourself to get through to a point where your body has fully adapted to the changes and you can fairly evaluate the differences.
I also wonder if it's time to try subq. I've been hesitant. It just seems like injecting straight into my love handles is weird, and then the sky into the abdomen, I just don't get it. I also have lots of stretch marks all over those areas which I don't know if I should be injecting in? Any thoughts on that?

And to add to the earlier post, I agree that I skyrocket look at day to day symptoms, but i do think it has its place when I think of the accounts of men in two shots per month on a roller-coaster every 2 weeks. I wonder, are there constant symptoms, as well as daily? Specifically, this overstimulated feeling really is tired to the dose use the more I think about it. But the insomnia, palpitations, anxiety, etc seem more like a progressive build up to hell over the past 2 months.
 
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GreenMachineX

Active Member
Update here: skipping testosterone yesterday was a good move. Did not have any overstimulation and slept great (still awake at 5am so I couldn't catch up on sleep, but at least got 7 or 8 hours). But, I'm starting to think I'm dealing with histamine intolerance or mcas as well.
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I'd still expect sleep to be worse with later-day testosterone injections, but it's always possible you'll be one of the exceptions.

The large-scale variations in serum testosterone are driven by the rate at which you absorb the testosterone ester from the injection sites. SHBG does not affect this particular dynamic.

You could certainly skip a day or two to bring down serum levels faster, and 7-8 mg is a reasonable dose to try. But you need to start thinking long-term. Don't link the minutia of how you're feeling on a given day to your dose that day or the day before. Think about how you feel on average over a couple weeks and link that to your TRT dose over the past couple of months. Dose reductions are notoriously difficult, so steel yourself to get through to a point where your body has fully adapted to the changes and you can fairly evaluate the differences.
Honestly, been thinking about this more. If my trough was literally top of range, I think I want to try 6mg daily and see what happens. I have a lot of room to move down, correct?

Also why would sleep be worse with night time injections if that meant peak about 12 hours later (on a lower dose as well)? Just want to understand.
 

Cataceous

Super Moderator
Honestly, been thinking about this more. If my trough was literally top of range, I think I want to try 6mg daily and see what happens. I have a lot of room to move down, correct?
...
This depends on what sort of peak-trough variation you're actually getting. I know that with that one pair of measurements it appears substantial. But as I said, it's unusual enough with a long ester that I would try to repeat it before taking it for granted.

I'd be in favor of your experimenting with 6 mg eventually. I'm just not sure you should jump there immediately.
...
Also why would sleep be worse with night time injections if that meant peak about 12 hours later (on a lower dose as well)? Just want to understand.
One possibility is that rising testosterone is stimulatory. Another is that peaks with smaller doses happen considerably earlier than 12 hours post-injections. And this would almost certainly be the case if you really are absorbing as fast as that one pair of measurements suggests.
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
This depends on what sort of peak-trough variation you're actually getting. I know that with that one pair of measurements it appears substantial. But as I said, it's unusual enough with a long ester that I would try to repeat it before taking it for granted.

I'd be in favor of your experimenting with 6 mg eventually. I'm just not sure you should jump there immediately.

One possibility is that rising testosterone is stimulatory. Another is that peaks with smaller doses happen considerably earlier than 12 hours post-injections. And this would almost certainly be the case if you really are absorbing as fast as that one pair of measurements suggests.
Gotcha. In regards to the 6mg, honestly I'm halfway to stopping TRT completely. This was the worst 2 weeks in my life. I can't handle insomnia. Why are you not in favor of dropping there immediately?

Otherwise, as far as that one pair of measurements, the high one was 24 hours post injection from the 25mg EOD protocol, so I would think it lines up to normal, but what's not normal is that my free T drops roughly 100 points in 24 hours. There is a chance I'm wrong about exactly when it drawn, but those Labs were definitely taken during my EOD experiment and I just know the high one was the day after injection, and the low was day of injection (around injection time from the time I looked at). I know it's crazy. I doubt I'll go back to any other protocol though to verify those tests. If I can't get this daily protocol to work, I'll try to get clomid for a natural restart.
This has been a rough several years trying to get dialed in.
 

JA Battle

Active Member
I say drop to 6. That’s still more t than you were probably making naturally. I don’t feel dose reductions personally. Maybe you will be the same. I would also lower the thyroid dose by 33%. This is likely a main culprit. Do both. Your t3 is really solid probably more than you need to feel well.
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I say drop to 6. That’s still more t than you were probably making naturally. I don’t feel dose reductions personally. Maybe you will be the same. I would also lower the thyroid dose by 33%. This is likely a main culprit. Do both. Your t3 is really solid probably more than you need to feel well.
Thanks. I'm also starting to suspect my vitamin d levels are causing the insomnia. I looked back over my labs over the past year and I was sleeping well when my vitamin d was 53, sleeping fair at 63, and now not sleeping at 78. This past week I skipped the vitamin d a few times and from what i remember, I slept pretty good those nights. There's 1 night, Thursday, where I can't recall if I took it the day that day though and that was the worst night I've had yet, overstimulation, palpitations, anxiety, chest tightness, difficulty breathing, but ER said I was fine. Friday night was the best sleep I've had in 2 weeks and didn't take it that day. Here I am wide awake Saturday night, and took 5k iu Saturday morning.

When is insomnia dangerous? Very concerned about susceptibility to covid with this insomnia. All week has been every other day, insomnia/sleep/etc.
 

Cataceous

Super Moderator
Gotcha. In regards to the 6mg, honestly I'm halfway to stopping TRT completely. This was the worst 2 weeks in my life. I can't handle insomnia. Why are you not in favor of dropping there immediately?
...
I was thinking smaller increments might be less traumatic. But if you're miserable anyway then it might not be much worse to make the bigger jump. Hopefully you can get to a place where it's tolerable so that you can give things at least a couple months to properly stabilize.
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I was thinking smaller increments might be less traumatic. But if you're miserable anyway then it might not be much worse to make the bigger jump. Hopefully you can get to a place where it's tolerable so that you can give things at least a couple months to properly stabilize.
That makes sense, thanks.
 

Gman86

Member
@GreenMachineX What dose of Telmisartan are u currently taking? I saw back in December u stopped the Telmisartan, and I think u mentioned not realizing the negative effect on ur personality it has until u stopped it for a couple days

Also, have u ever tried taking progesterone along with ur TRT protocol?

Also, just a side note. Saw that u take 1000mg of vitamin c per day. Synthetic vit C does more harm than good. It can deplete the body of real vit C within the body. Obv not something that’s gonna make or break ur progress, just something to consider. Here’s a couple vids taking about it if ur interested


 
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GreenMachineX

Active Member
@GreenMachineX What dose of Telmisartan are u currently taking? I saw back in December u stopped the Telmisartan, and I think u mentioned not realizing the negative effect on ur personality it has until u stopped it for a couple days

Also, have u ever tried taking progesterone along with ur TRT protocol?

Also, just a side note. Saw that u take 1000mg of vitamin c per day. Synthetic vit C does more harm than good. It can deplete the body of real vit C within the body. Obv not something that’s gonna make or break ur progress, just something to consider. Here’s a couple vids taking about it if ur interested


I'm on 40mg telmisartan. I may have been wrong about all that personality stuff. I did start it again later that same week. Looking back, I have no idea what was causing what. I'm still having BP spikes (in ER 150/85 and eventually down to 138/85) by those are only what I've seen. Absolutely higher when I'm freaking out. I'm quite sure now though what I'm dealing with is a combination of vitamin D toxicity (not calcium toxicity though), and elevated testosterone.

I'm mimicking exactly today what I did on Friday that resulted in fantastic sleep which was only magnesium, theanine, niacin, fish oil, chamomile, lemon balm and melatonin (this before bed and middle of night, the rest throughout day and night).

I guess I'll have to start testosterone again eventually, but I'm scared to. But I know not enough yet can result in sleep issues too. Last shot was Thursday morning. Good thing I don't feel the same revved up feeling I did as then which also leads me to believe it's linked to vitamin D (my levels have never been this high) but it seems like if I skip a dose, I'll sleep. So maybe the acute dose pushed me over the edge since my levels are so high?
 

GreenMachineX

Active Member
I was thinking smaller increments might be less traumatic. But if you're miserable anyway then it might not be much worse to make the bigger jump. Hopefully you can get to a place where it's tolerable so that you can give things at least a couple months to properly stabilize.
One more question on the previous thing we were talking about. Let's just say my levels really do swing 100 points in 24 hours. If that's the case, will my levels drop to zero (or whatever bottom is) in 2-3 days then, or is there a trough reserve so to speak where the peak goes really high, but then it'll hang out Stonebridge in the middle for a few days before completely clearing from the system?

When I was on 50mg twice per week, I did have tests back then where 24 hours post injection had me almost 1000 total T, and trough was 500.
 
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