nandrolone- atrophy in quads? Also, legalities and terminology

Gman86

Member
I’ve been on 25mg Anavar daily for 2 weeks, and it’s awesome. Strength is going up during each workout. I started BPC today for a nagging back injury. I am turned off by Deca’s reported side effects
What’s the rest of ur protocol look like?
 

andrepohlann

New Member
I switched to a nandrolone based HRT protocol in February, around when gyms all closed. So haven’t been able to work legs since getting on this protocol, other than cardio, and I feel like my quads are about the same size now as they were back in February. Maybe they got slightly smaller, from not working them out, but it’s not really noticeable to me when I look down at them. If anything, seems like the nandrolone base preserved my quad muscles

And just referencing the comment above, my member has definitely not changed in size at all, I would absolutely notice that lol, and testicles seem the exact same size as they were on test cyp/ enanthate, without HCG.
Would you discribe your protocol? Is it still 200mg N + 60mg T /w? How is it going? Did you do bloodwork? I started Deca a 2 weeks ago, simply I want to put some muscles on. Lost a 5kg lean mass trough diet.
My problem is the following with Deca: The potential downsides (decreased HDL, cardiovascular problems) seem to be related to the lack of E2. Nelsons aproach, full replacement dose of T so 100mg/w seems reasonable to me to have high enough estrogen levels. On top of that Nandrolone. I do not see the point in getting lower.
I think there is no need for 2/1 ration T/D. I did Deca on (150mg-200mg/w) its own for 3 month last year. Everything works normal, no Erection problems. Lean mass increased, bf decreased. Libido was lower, what is per se not a bad thing. I stopped it only because I was affraid of the long term impact on cardiovascular function.

My point is I am confuesed about the ratio.
 

Gman86

Member
Would you discribe your protocol? Is it still 200mg N + 60mg T /w? How is it going? Did you do bloodwork? I started Deca a 2 weeks ago, simply I want to put some muscles on. Lost a 5kg lean mass trough diet.
My problem is the following with Deca: The potential downsides (decreased HDL, cardiovascular problems) seem to be related to the lack of E2. Nelsons aproach, full replacement dose of T so 100mg/w seems reasonable to me to have high enough estrogen levels. On top of that Nandrolone. I do not see the point in getting lower.
I think there is no need for 2/1 ration T/D. I did Deca on (150mg-200mg/w) its own for 3 month last year. Everything works normal, no Erection problems. Lean mass increased, bf decreased. Libido was lower, what is per se not a bad thing. I stopped it only because I was affraid of the long term impact on cardiovascular function.

My point is I am confuesed about the ratio.
I started off my deca based protocol with 200mg of deca per week and 42mg of test per week. Only thing I had tested while on that was E2. Came back at 24. Felt pretty good, libido was a little lower compared to the last protocol before the deca base, which was 180mg of testosterone only per week. Libido was at about a 5/10. Erecrions were fine tho. I then bumped up the test to 63mg/ week, and kept the deca at 200mg per week. Had E2 tested again. Went up to 34. Didn’t really feel any difffence I don’t think. Maybe libido went up a little. Then added in 1000iu’s of empowers HCG to see if I could get E2 up that way. After 3-4 weeks, E2 came back at 32. So basically the same. Felt no different when adding empowers HCG at 1000iu’s/ week. I then ordered a pharma brand of HCG off of reliableRX.com. It’s a brand that my buddy uses with good results. SAFASI is the brand name. Used that at 1000iu’s/ week along with the 200mg of deca and 63mg of test per week. After 3-4 weeks E2 came back at 45. But I felt no difference while on the SAFASI HCG. No increase in libido, testicles weren’t any bigger, ejaculate volume was the same. Literally didn’t notice one difference while being on it. Since 7-15-20 I dropped the HCG, and upped my test to 84mg/ week, and have kept the deca constant at 200mg/ week. I don’t ever plan on increasing the deca higher than that. I only titrate the test dose to increase E2. I’ve always done better with slightly higher E2 in the past. Somewhere around 40-60. Plus, I’m one that believes in all the benefits of estrogen. I do think it still needs to be balanced, just like with any other hormone, but I’m currently convinced that there’s a ton of health benefits to having optimal estrogen levels. I think for overall health and longevity, I’d feel comfortable with it a bit higher than where it’s been so far on the deca base. Again, I think 40-60 is a good range for me. But obv it also depends on how I feel. If I get my E2 up a bit more, and I feel worse, then obv I’ll back my test dose down and get E2 to where it is around now.

As far as health markers while on the deca based protocol, life extension has this smoking deal rn where they have one panel that runs a ton of labs, for only $26. And I mean a ton of labs! I’ll post some pics of everything the panel checks. I’ve had it run twice so far on the deca based protocol. Both pretty close to eachother. Like 3-4 weeks apart. Both times were while on the 200mg of deca and 63mg of test. I had it run once around the end of May, just to check and see how everything looked. Everything looked great. Fasting glucose was slightly higher than usual, at 91, but went mostly carnivore around the same time I switched to a deca base, so wasn’t too surprised. Anytime u get excess protein, fasting glucose tends to go up due to gluconeogenesis. It’s a common theme with carnivores to see fasting glucose be slightly elevated. The only other thing that was slightly high was my HCT. It was 54. So donated whole blood after that, and got the same panel done at the beginning of July. Everything was about the same, and HCT came down to 51, which is good.

As far as other health markers go, blood pressure has never been better since switching to my current protocol. I average around 110/60. I literally check it every single day. But again, I really improved my diet pretty much the exact same time as when I switched to the deca base. So not sure how much my diet is contributing to such great BP readings. But it at least shows that my type of protocol isn’t guaranteed to raise BP. In fact, the nandrolone could be lowering it’s a bit. But again, I have no idea how much is related to diet, or my protocol, in regards to such great BP readings. I also workout with weights as much as I can, and have been riding my bike for cardio quite a bit since the weather has been pretty good in Mass. My resting pulse in the morning averages low 60’s btw.

So ontocholesterol, which seems to be ur main concern. My lipid panel looks the best it has ever looked while being on HRT. My lipids always look pretty good, but they look slightly better on this deca based protocol. I’ll post pics of my lipids from both panels I had done.
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Gman86

Member
I’m convinced that all the studies done on deca only showing any cardiovascular issues are due to E2 being too low. I’m not worried in the least about any cardiovascular issues from using nandrolone long term. Until they prove that deca causes cardiovascular issues, and these issues aren’t related to low E2 while using deca only, I personally don’t worry about using nandrolone. I’ve looked at all these studies, and literally every single issue they’ve found from using deca only matches up to a T with the same issues men get from having too low E2. I just don’t think this can be a coincidence. So as long as I keep my E2 in a healthy range, while using nandrolone long term, I don’t worry about what the studies say even a tiny bit. Again, if they do a study showing that men using nandrolone, while having healthy E2 levels, ran into the same cardiovascular issues that have been shown in previous studies on deca only, I will definitely change my stance.

But that’s actually really interesting that u were able to run deca only at 150-200mg per week for 3 months without any issues. On that dose, I guarantee ur level of 17-beta-estradiol (the type of E2 everyone commonly rests for) was <5.
 

swoops36

Active Member
If u don’t mind me asking, how much is the 25mg of anavar costing u per month? Through Defy I’m pretty sure that would cost around $450/ month.
It’s $200 for 6 weeks worth (45 tabs) thru my clinic. They use Absolute Pharmacy for this
 

readalot

Member
Yes it’s a capsule actually
If u don’t mind me asking, how much is the 25mg of anavar costing u per month? Through Defy I’m pretty sure that would cost around $450/ month.

FYI...Empower had a significant price drop late last year and is competitive with numbers above and the Hoye's 100 mg troche (gone now, you could easily split). Unfortunately, oxandrolone has very non-linear dose response on HDL (7.5 mg or 50 mg per day crushes my HDL 50-70%).

1595525853311.png


You can see what a racket the retail route is below. The troche was nice as you could purchase the 100 mg troche and split and still enjoy 16 ct/mg. Empower (and Absolute, thanks @swoops36) now competitive with that in a 25 mg capsule. All theoretical of course since no one wants to crush their HDL.

Interested if your experiences...you don't have this issue or just use oxandrolone for short periods and hope for the best?

1595526980677.png
 
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swoops36

Active Member
FYI...Empower had a significant price drop late last year and is competitive with numbers above and the Hoye's 100 mg troche (gone now, you could easily split). Unfortunately, oxandrolone has very non-linear dose response on HDL (7.5 mg or 50 mg per day crushes my HDL 50-70%).

View attachment 10154

You can see what a racket the retail route is below. The troche was nice as you could purchase the 100 mg troche and split and still enjoy 16 ct/mg. Empower (and Absolute, thanks @swoops36) now competitive with that in a 25 mg capsule. All theoretical of course since no one wants to crush their HDL.

Interested if your experiences...you don't have this issue or just use oxandrolone for short periods and hope for the best?

View attachment 10155
This is the first time I’m using rx’d anavar, and I haven’t gotten labs while on it yet. They only allow 6 weeks cycles tho, then 6 weeks off. My plan is to do labs during the final week and see what the impact is. So far I feel great
 

swoops36

Active Member
FYI...Empower had a significant price drop late last year and is competitive with numbers above and the Hoye's 100 mg troche (gone now, you could easily split). Unfortunately, oxandrolone has very non-linear dose response on HDL (7.5 mg or 50 mg per day crushes my HDL 50-70%).

View attachment 10154

You can see what a racket the retail route is below. The troche was nice as you could purchase the 100 mg troche and split and still enjoy 16 ct/mg. Empower (and Absolute, thanks @swoops36) now competitive with that in a 25 mg capsule. All theoretical of course since no one wants to crush their HDL.

Interested if your experiences...you don't have this issue or just use oxandrolone for short periods and hope for the best?

View attachment 10155
Oh yeah as far as the price, the same amount of Var would have been $587 with goodrx, so in this case I figured my clinic was actually priced very reasonable
 

Gman86

Member
This is the first time I’m using rx’d anavar, and I haven’t gotten labs while on it yet. They only allow 6 weeks cycles tho, then 6 weeks off. My plan is to do labs during the final week and see what the impact is. So far I feel great
Are u with DefyMedical?
 

readalot

Member
I’m convinced that all the studies done on deca only showing any cardiovascular issues are due to E2 being too low. I’m not worried in the least about any cardiovascular issues from using nandrolone long term. Until they prove that deca causes cardiovascular issues, and these issues aren’t related to low E2 while using deca only, I personally don’t worry about using nandrolone. I’ve looked at all these studies, and literally every single issue they’ve found from using deca only matches up to a T with the same issues men get from having too low E2. I just don’t think this can be a coincidence. So as long as I keep my E2 in a healthy range, while using nandrolone long term, I don’t worry about what the studies say even a tiny bit. Again, if they do a study showing that men using nandrolone, while having healthy E2 levels, ran into the same cardiovascular issues that have been shown in previous studies on deca only, I will definitely change my stance.

But that’s actually really interesting that u were able to run deca only at 150-200mg per week for 3 months without any issues. On that dose, I guarantee ur level of 17-beta-estradiol (the type of E2 everyone commonly rests for) was <5.
Question/concern I've got is not around quad atrophy or even anhedonia/sexual dysfunction with nandrolone. I meticulously kept my E2 on track when doing modest amounts of nandrolone (80-150 mg/week) with 60-80 mg/week of Test Cyp. Still suffered semi ED while at the same time having tremendous libido (it's quite the combo). Best I can figure is that ND works at the neurotransmitter level (brain) in helping mitigate chronic pain as opposed to an real local effect to restore joint function. It's also made me feel numb.

I digress. Concern I have is medium/long term use of nandrolone and its effect on beta-receptors / beta adrenoreceptor action in the heart. I can post the rodent models (easy to look up on google) but obviously no human data. I posted my experience over on another forum but I can tell you experiencing afib in the middle of the night is no fun and it came out of nowhere. Can I prove it was the ND? Nope. There may have been synergistic effect of TRT + T3 + T4 + prior ND + prior oxandrolone usage + HIIT + getting to the age where high intensity exercise may lead to afib. Just a word of caution if you work out hard, take testosterone, also use combination Thyroid therapy, and introduce ND, which is shown to upregulate beta receptor activity in the heart of mammals. Do you have pre-existing arrhythmia?

With the uptick in its clinical use (and now men using ND based HRT!), I guess we'll see if more anecdotal reports pop up. I've attached a sample of articles below. Note I read all of these before trying synthetic AAS for anabolic therapy. As Mike Tyson says and I paraphrase "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

Take care.


Effects of testosterone and nandrolone on cardiac function: A randomized, placebo-controlled study
See above, This is not something you may pick up short term on an echo or EKG. Note I ran echo/ekg prior to my first 19 week course of ND. Looked great.


Nandrolone-pretreatment enhances cardiac beta(2)-adrenoceptor expression and reverses heart contractile down-regulation in the post-stress period of acute-stressed rats

The Impact of Nandrolone Decanoate on the Central Nervous System

Effects of nandrolone and resistance training on the blood pressure, cardiac electrophysiology, and expression of atrial β-adrenergic receptors

Abstract
Aims: This study was performed to assess isolated and combined effects of nandrolone and resistance training on the blood pressure, cardiac electrophysiology, and expression of the β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the heart of rats.
Main methods: Wistar rats were randomly divided into four groups and submitted to a 6-week treatment with nandrolone and/or resistance training. Cardiac hypertrophy was accessed by the ratio of heart weight to the final body weight. Blood pressure was determined by a computerized tail-cuff system. Electrocardiography analyses were performed. Western blotting was used to access the protein levels of the β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the right atrium and left ventricle.
Key findings: Both resistance training and nandrolone induced cardiac hypertrophy. Nandrolone increased systolic blood pressure depending on the treatment time. Resistance training decreased systolic, diastolic and mean arterial blood pressure, as well as induced resting bradycardia. Nandrolone prolonged the QTc interval for both trained and non-trained groups when they were compared to their respective vehicle-treated one. Nandrolone increased the expression of β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the right atrium for both trained and non-trained groups when they were compared to their respective vehicle-treated one.
Significance: This study indicated that nandrolone, associated or not with resistance training increases blood pressure depending on the treatment time, induces prolongation of the QTc interval, and increases the expression of β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the cardiac right atrium, but not in the left ventricle.
 
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Gman86

Member
Question/concern I've got is not around quad atrophy or even anhedonia/sexual dysfunction with nandrolone. I meticulously kept my E2 on track when doing modest amounts of nandrolone (80-150 mg/week) with 60-80 mg/week of Test Cyp. Still suffered semi ED while at the same time having tremendous libido (it's quite the combo). Best I can figure is that ND works at the neurotransmitter level (brain) in helping mitigate chronic pain as opposed to an real local effect to restore joint function. It's also made me feel numb.

I digress. Concern I have is medium/long term use of nandrolone and its effect on beta-receptors / beta adrenoreceptor action in the heart. I can post the rodent models (easy to look up on google) but obviously no human data. I posted my experience over on another forum but I can tell you experiencing afib in the middle of the night is no fun and it came out of nowhere. Can I prove it was the ND? Nope. There may have been synergistic effect of TRT + T3 + T4 + prior ND + prior oxandrolone usage + HIIT + getting to the age where high intensity exercise may lead to afib. Just a word of caution if you work out hard, take testosterone, also use combination Thyroid therapy, and introduce ND, which is shown to upregulate beta receptor activity in the heart of mammals. Do you have pre-existing arrhythmia?

With the uptick in its clinical use (and now men using ND based HRT!), I guess we'll see if more anecdotal reports pop up. I've attached a sample of articles below. Note I read all of these before trying synthetic AAS for anabolic therapy. As Mike Tyson says and I paraphrase "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."

Take care.


Effects of testosterone and nandrolone on cardiac function: A randomized, placebo-controlled study
See above, This is not something you may pick up short term on an echo or EKG. Note I ran echo/ekg prior to my first 19 week course of ND. Looked great.


Nandrolone-pretreatment enhances cardiac beta(2)-adrenoceptor expression and reverses heart contractile down-regulation in the post-stress period of acute-stressed rats

The Impact of Nandrolone Decanoate on the Central Nervous System

Effects of nandrolone and resistance training on the blood pressure, cardiac electrophysiology, and expression of atrial β-adrenergic receptors

Abstract
Aims: This study was performed to assess isolated and combined effects of nandrolone and resistance training on the blood pressure, cardiac electrophysiology, and expression of the β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the heart of rats.
Main methods: Wistar rats were randomly divided into four groups and submitted to a 6-week treatment with nandrolone and/or resistance training. Cardiac hypertrophy was accessed by the ratio of heart weight to the final body weight. Blood pressure was determined by a computerized tail-cuff system. Electrocardiography analyses were performed. Western blotting was used to access the protein levels of the β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the right atrium and left ventricle.
Key findings: Both resistance training and nandrolone induced cardiac hypertrophy. Nandrolone increased systolic blood pressure depending on the treatment time. Resistance training decreased systolic, diastolic and mean arterial blood pressure, as well as induced resting bradycardia. Nandrolone prolonged the QTc interval for both trained and non-trained groups when they were compared to their respective vehicle-treated one. Nandrolone increased the expression of β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the right atrium for both trained and non-trained groups when they were compared to their respective vehicle-treated one.
Significance: This study indicated that nandrolone, associated or not with resistance training increases blood pressure depending on the treatment time, induces prolongation of the QTc interval, and increases the expression of β1- and β2-adrenergic receptors in the cardiac right atrium, but not in the left ventricle.
Thanks for all this, and reporting ur anecdotal experience using nandrolone as a base. My erections have been amazing on a nandrolone base. I have a rating for how I like things to function down there, rn things are the best they can be in regards to erections. My scale is basically being able to get fully hard just by thinking about sex, not touching it or looking at porn (that’s where I am currently on a nandrolone base), then it goes getting hard while looking at porn but not touching it, then it goes getting hard while watching porn and having to touch it, and then if I’m watching porn and touching it, and it’s still difficult to get erect, or takes a long time, I know somethings wrong. It’s just a rough scale that I’ve used to see where I’m at sexually over the years on HRT. I’ve bounced around between all those at one point or another. On 200mg of deca, and 60mg of test, erections are a 10/10 I would say. Extremely easy to get them, and keep them. Libido is still only like a 6/10, but is there whenever I need it, so no biggie. I do prefer libido higher tho. I think I may just need to get my E2 up more. On this protocol E2 has been around 32-34. I usually do better with E2 around 40-60, so I just upped my test from 63mg/ week, to 84mg/ week. Will get E2 tested again in like 5 weeks or so.

Can I ask u where ur E2 was around when u were using nandrolone as ur base? How many times did u have it tested? What’s ur SHBG? My SHBG is mid 30’s atm, but it’s always binded to my sex hormones like it was higher, so I tend to need a higher total T to get decent free T levels, and I assume the same holds true for E2.
 

readalot

Member
Thanks for all this, and reporting ur anecdotal experience using nandrolone as a base. My erections have been amazing on a nandrolone base. I have a rating for how I like things to function down there, rn things are the best they can be in regards to erections. My scale is basically being able to get fully hard just by thinking about sex, not touching it or looking at porn (that’s where I am currently on a nandrolone base), then it goes getting hard while looking at porn but not touching it, then it goes getting hard while watching porn and having to touch it, and then if I’m watching porn and touching it, and it’s still difficult to get erect, or takes a long time, I know somethings wrong. It’s just a rough scale that I’ve used to see where I’m at sexually over the years on HRT. I’ve bounced around between all those at one point or another. On 200mg of deca, and 60mg of test, erections are a 10/10 I would say. Extremely easy to get them, and keep them. Libido is still only like a 6/10, but is there whenever I need it, so no biggie. I do prefer libido higher tho. I think I may just need to get my E2 up more. On this protocol E2 has been around 32-34. I usually do better with E2 around 40-60, so I just upped my test from 63mg/ week, to 84mg/ week. Will get E2 tested again in like 5 weeks or so.

Can I ask u where ur E2 was around when u were using nandrolone as ur base? How many times did u have it tested? What’s ur SHBG? My SHBG is mid 30’s atm, but it’s always binded to my sex hormones like it was higher, so I tend to need a higher total T to get decent free T levels, and I assume the same holds true for E2.

I don't think I can claim I ever used nandrolone as a base. More like 1:1 or 1:2 TC/ND ratio. Pre TRT my SHBG 55-60. After TRT (80-120 mg/week) my SHBG didn't really budge after 6 months (stayed above 50). Typical protocol was 2x week sub-Q injections and 100 mg/week would bring me to 1000 ng/dL trough. Sensitive E2 (measured multiple times with multiple labs, Esoterix and Labcorp put me at 35-40 pg/mL

Have run two courses of ND. First was 19 weeks. Second was 15 weeks.

Added in the ND at 80-120 mg/week along with 80 mg/week of TC. By week 10, trough measurements for Test and E2 hadn't really budged. Minimal interference of Nandrolone on Test assay so test at trough was 1050 ng/dL. E2 sensitive at 37 pg/mL. SHBG dropped to 45 by week 10. ND drops my SHBG by roughly 10-20% within 10 weeks. Here's the interesting part, by week 19 my sensitive E2 had doubled to 70 pg/mL.

I tried another 15 week course of ND with test about 7 months later (150 mg week ND + 60 mg week of TC). By week 15, I experienced the same result. I don't have a weekly time course but anecdotal data nonetheless. ED or ED-type effect within 10 min of starting appeared within 4 weeks of starting the ND.
 

Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
I wish all of you guys stopped calling nandrolone Deca. That brand was abandoned around 20 years ago and it only stigmatizes the drug for clinical uses and puts physicians in a very tough spot. You will set us back. USE THE GENERIC NAME!!!!



 

readalot

Member
I wish all of you guys stopped calling nandrolone Deca. That brand was abandoned around 20 years ago and it only stigmatizes the drug for clinical uses and puts physicians in a very tough spot. You will set us back. USE THE GENERIC NAME!!!!



Amen! Confuses laypeople and counter productive to folks trying to get anabolic therapy for legitimate purposes.

Anavar as well, see here (only oxandrolone available today):


Thanks for this detailed summary @Nelson Vergel
 
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Nelson Vergel

Founder, ExcelMale.com
Most of you receiving prescriptions are oblivious to the fact this is something new beyond HIV. The tide is turning slowly and I have been involved since 1993 in educating physicians. Please learn that fact before you get on a loud speaker. It is still a fragile situation much like pot was 15 years ago when its movement was gaining momentum. the DEA has not gone after doctors that are prescribing for non HIV related “conditions” like “gaining muscle”.

I have failed to make a point to clarify this on ExcelMale.com, a site that has become increasingly popular for the keyword nandrolone. I will make a point to repeat this more frequently since it is no one’s fault to not know the long history of activism behind this medication as well as oxandrolone.

It is only available via compounding and Houston, LA and only a few other cities have urologists educated enough to prescribe it with enough chart background notes to justify it.
 
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