I found a TRT protocol that works

[madman]

Speaking on supraphysiological Test levels do we even know what early Homo sapiens levels were?

Is it crazy to hypothesize they could have had test levels well into the 2000’s and we are merely “getting by” due to living in a civilized modern society. Meaning through evolution we don’t need such high test levels due to our more social nature put upon us as part of living in a modern society.

We see it in primates. Bonobos for instance don’t have as much testosterone due to their more social nature. Male chimps on the other hand have crazy high hormone levels because they aren’t as social and they often resort to killing other chimps to solve problems. They are quite violent primates.

Maybe we are fixated on TT and FT levels via TRT that do not serve us well. Maybe We are woefully “low” when it comes to levels that helped early man stay lean, strong, aggressive (in a good way for hunting etc) and with sex drives that enabled them to ravish women or men (full consent lol) all day long?

I don’t know. Perhaps our hormones have changed and/or adapted to living as civilized human beings and it is all to our detriment. Did our grandparents, great grandparents etc deal with low Test? Maybe? Maybe not? I wonder how far back male hormone levels were tracked. When did these tests come available and are we in fact continuing a steep decline in male hormone levels? What are healthy good numbers that everyone should strive for to get us back to feeling whole? Whole as in a sense of well being with a libido that is off the charts.

I know where my numbers are and I feel the best I’ve ever felt. A little distracting, ok a lot, with a crazy high libido but the other side of that coin isn’t where I ever want to be again.

In the early 1970s and healthy young males were averaging TT 600-800 ng/dL.

Unfortunately, when it comes to libido let alone ED they are multifactorial and there is much more involved than just having healthy hormones (TT, FT, estradiol, DHT, prolactin).

Underlying vascular health is critical!

Having healthy testosterone levels is beneficial to one's libido/erectile function but it is far from the only thing that is required to having a healthy libido.

Thyroid/adrenals, neurotransmitters, insulin sensitivity, stress (mental/physical), quality of sleep, diet, underlying vascular health to name a few can all have a big impact on one's libido/erectile function.

Libido/ED is much more complex than simply having healthy testosterone levels.

Even then when it comes to trt and libido many tend to get caught up in thinking that it will be through the roof once they hop on trt and get to the point of so-called dialed in let alone cure any ED issues they may have.

When you find that happy place you should have a healthy libido not raging, savage, insane.

There are many men who will see an improvement in libido, others will continue to struggle, some may even end up worse off than before trt and some of the lucky ones will see a drastic improvement.

I think too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

davidrn said:
"The normal range of testosterone is reported as 350- 1200ng/dl. Studies in the 1940's showed the average testosterone level to be at 700 ng/dl, 300 ng/dl higher than for men today. In the past, a drop in testosterone levels to 250 ng/dl was rarely reported before men were 80 years of age. Yet today, it is not an uncommon value for middle aged men! "
I also have seen mention (assume this is estimated) that slim tradesmen as recent as a hundred years ago had levels up to the 2000 range. In my town, Italian stone workers built loose stone walls with little equipment in the 1870's, looking at pictures of these men, you realize how strong and wiry they were. What they weren't, was built like contemporary bodybuilders.

My reply to a previous member (davidrn) thread:


There were no accurate testing methods decades ago.....let alone testing methods in the 1940s.


Serum Testosterone Assays—Accuracy Matters (2004)

The routine clinical use of T assays began approximately 30 yr ago with the development of RIAs for T that could be performed on relatively small quantities of blood after organic extraction and chromatographic separation (1). Subsequently, there have been remarkable advancements in immunoassays for T as well as other hormones. Compared with original RIAs, T assays of today are more sensitive and specific, require smaller quantities of serum, do not involve extraction or chromatography, and are performed more rapidly and with less cost. In most large clinical chemistry and many reference laboratories, T assays are performed routinely on automated platforms using non-radioactive methods.



http://eknygos.lsmuni.lt/springer/516/63-72.pdf

The first RIA method, developed in 1959 by Yallow and Berson (1,2), was for insulin. Ten years later, Abraham (3) reported the development of the first steroid RIA, which was for estradiol (E2). The immediate impact of the RIA method allowed measurement of an immensely wide range of compounds of clinical and biological importance and opened new horizons in endocrinology.




I also have seen mention (assume this is estimated) that slim tradesmen as recent as a hundred years ago had levels up to the 2000 range.

That would be based off he said/she said!

 

[madman]

Too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

So much misinformation spewed on the numerous forums/gootube!

*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*high T = raging libido/titanium erections

*high T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine.....LMFAO.


Complete S**T SHOW to say the least!

 

[bumpy]

Too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

So much misinformation spewed on the numerous forums/gootube!

*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*high T = raging libido/titanium erections

*high T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine.....LMFAO.


Complete S**T SHOW to say the least!

I think there is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to T levels. I’ve ran the gamut on dosages and levels. Let me preface this by saying I’ve never went over 500mgs week.

I feel best when my TT and FT are in the high ranges. When I say I feel my best, I mean all the way around from sense of well being to sex drive aka libido. I’ve done TRT level doses and there is just no comparison for ME. When i started to venture into high TT, FT, DHT (with estrogen and prolactin in check) there was a marked difference in my well being.

 

[madman]

I think there is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to T levels. I’ve ran the gamut on dosages and levels. Let me preface this by saying I’ve never went over 500mgs week.

I feel best when my TT and FT are in the high ranges. When I say I feel my best, I mean all the way around from sense of well being to sex drive aka libido. I’ve done TRT level doses and there is just no comparison for ME. When i started to venture into high TT, FT, DHT (with estrogen and prolactin in check) there was a marked difference in my well being.

As I stated do what you feel is best for you!

 

[Gman86]

I think there is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to T levels. I’ve ran the gamut on dosages and levels. Let me preface this by saying I’ve never went over 500mgs week.

I feel best when my TT and FT are in the high ranges. When I say I feel my best, I mean all the way around from sense of well being to sex drive aka libido. I’ve done TRT level doses and there is just no comparison for ME. When i started to venture into high TT, FT, DHT (with estrogen and prolactin in check) there was a marked difference in my well being.

So ur saying when u used much higher doses u felt way better than u even feel now on HRT? Cuz ur currently feeling pretty amazing atm correct? So ur saying ufelt even better than this when blasting?

What total T and free T numbers did u feel best on when u were using high doses? And how did u keep E2 and prolactin in check, with ai’s and/ or caber?

 

[bumpy]

So ur saying when u used much higher doses u felt way better than u even feel now on HRT? Cuz ur currently feeling pretty amazing atm correct? So ur saying ufelt even better than this when blasting?

What total T and free T numbers did u feel best on when u were using high doses? And how did u keep E2 and prolactin in check, with ai’s and/ or caber?

No sir the complete opposite. When I used 300-500mgs/week I felt terrible. Bloated, tired, low sense of well being, low libido etc. Just felt “off”.

I feel great at 1,500 TT and 731 FT. Where I am at currently. My prolactin and E2 are “perfect” without any pharmaceuticals helping them.

Prolactin is 11.2 (range 2.0-18)
Estradiol 25 pg/ml

 

[Gman86]

No sir the complete opposite. When I used 300-500mgs/week I felt terrible. Bloated, tired, low sense of well being, low libido etc. Just felt “off”.

I feel great at 1,500 TT and 731 FT. Where I am at currently. My prolactin and E2 are “perfect” without any pharmaceuticals helping them.

Prolactin is 11.2 (range 2.0-18)
Estradiol 25 pg/ml

Still can’t believe ur E2 is so low compared to ur test levels, legit blows my mind lol. Never seen anything like it before. What’s ur SHBG at? Sorry if I asked that already

 

[bumpy]

Still can’t believe ur E2 is so low compared to ur test levels, legit blows my mind lol. Never seen anything like it before. What’s ur SHBG at? Sorry if I asked that already

Hahahaha I know. I convert to DHT like a maniac though. Still have a full head of hair lmao

DHT 92 ng/ml (range 12- 65)

SHBG is on the low end - 15

 

[Gman86]

Hahahaha I know. I convert to DHT like a maniac though. Still have a full head of hair lmao

DHT 92 ng/ml (range 12- 65)

SHBG is on the low end - 15

Ya figured ur SHBG was in the teens. I convert to DHT even more than u, but my E2 was almost 3 times what urs is on these labs. Not sure wtf is going on with ur test to E2 ratio, but whatever is happening is clearly working for u, and that’s all that matters. Only thing I can think of is that it was a lab error. I’ve seen guys that were low aromatizers, but nothing like this before. My E2 was 25 when I had low T before I even started treatment! These labs were while on 210mg of test, nothing else. That’s good to hear about the hair. Mine has been thin my whole life, just have fine hair genetically. But haven’t noticed any hair loss or recession since starting HRT 8 years ago. Definitely wish my hair was a lot thicker, but guess I can’t complain too much, at least it’s still there lol

 

[Gman86]

@bumpy Hey jc, what’s ur HCG protocol? Like total dose per week and how many times per week do u inject it?

 

[bumpy]

@bumpy Hey jc, what’s ur HCG protocol? Like total dose per week and how many times per week do u inject it?

Tuesday: 250iu HCG
Wednesday: Test injection
Friday: 250iu HCG
Saturday: Test injection

500iu’s a week of HCG distributed via 2 injections.

 

[JA Battle]

Hahahaha I know. I convert to DHT like a maniac though. Still have a full head of hair lmao

DHT 92 ng/ml (range 12- 65)

SHBG is on the low end - 15

this not too high of a dht number. I wouldn’t classify you as a high converter to dht. My dht is 50 ng/ml while using 56mg of testosterone per week. Full head of hair. I’m a very low aromatizer and my E2 at 15. You must have a lab error!

 

[bumpy]

this not too high of a dht number. I wouldn’t classify you as a high converter to dht. My dht is 50 ng/ml while using 56mg of testosterone per week. Full head of hair. I’m a very low aromatizer and my E2 at 15. You must have a lab error!

My E2 is 25 and that is using 5x the amount of test you are using.

What’s the highest DHT you’ve seen? I am clueless where it tops out at (if at all it does).

 

[Gman86]

My E2 is 25 and that is using 5x the amount of test you are using.

What’s the highest DHT you’ve seen? I am clueless where it tops out at (if at all it does).

Any plans to get E2 tested in the near future? My money’s on lab error as well. But very curious where it currently sits while ur feeling so good

 

[Gman86]

My E2 is 25 and that is using 5x the amount of test you are using.

What’s the highest DHT you’ve seen? I am clueless where it tops out at (if at all it does).

It depends what method of TRT the person is doing. On scrotal test cream my DHT was 311 (16-79). Highest it’s been on injections is around 142, IIRC. Was on 100mg if test/ week and 1000iu’s of HCG/ week at the time. So ur not an over converter of DHT. I’d say ur a healthy converter. Maybe slightly above average. Which is where u want to be, imo.

 

[bumpy]

Any plans to get E2 tested in the near future? My money’s on lab error as well. But very curious where it currently sits while ur feeling so good

I just got my results back less than two weeks ago. I’m going to keep running my same protocol and if I ever start to feel like things are going south ie loss of libido I’ll get labs done again quickly.

I’ll recheck in 2 months regardless of how I’m feeling.

 

[bumpy]

It depends what method of TRT the person is doing. On scrotal test cream my DHT was 311 (16-79). Highest it’s been on injections is around 142, IIRC. Was on 100mg if test/ week and 1000iu’s of HCG/ week at the time. So ur not an over converter of DHT. I’d say ur a healthy converter. Maybe slightly above average. Which is where u want to be, imo.

Holy smokes 311 and 142? How was your libido?

 

[JA Battle]

Holy smokes 311 and 142? How was your libido?

Gman can speak for himself but since I’m half lit on 4th of July I will also speak for him, he has for the most part always had a good libido and related shit. He just has brain fog. Haha

 

[Gman86]

Gman can speak for himself but since I’m half lit on 4th of July I will also speak for him, he has for the most part always had a good libido and related shit. He just has brain fog. Haha

thats pretty spot on lol. Didn’t notice much difference in libido at 311 on the cream compared to 142 on injections. IIRC my libido was a bit better at 142 on injections. A boost in libido with the cream was one thing I was looking for, but definitely didn’t deliver

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Man I would pay money to know why on pellets ur libido is high and on injections it’s not. I’m racking my brain trying to think of the most likely culprit. What’s ur thoughts? U think it could be something as simple as the way u convert into E2 on one compared to the other, or it’s a bit more complicated?

Would high dose subq(150-200 mg either weekly or split dose E3.5D) emulate the steady 'drip' of pellets? I haven't searched here for a possible answer( or opinion) but, even with esterfied test, the depot slowly releases, unlike the quicker release of IM. And this isn't about lab numbers; it's about libido, erections, mood, energy; The idea that high dose subq might have a similar effect on slowly increasing dopamine.

As I posted on this thread, I did pellets seven years ago. Though the labs looked great, I felt nothing and it remained that way over the course of several months. I had six Testopel implanted, IIRC, which is about 450 mg. Labs after a month: TT: 1052 FT: 741 E2(sensitive) 50. Maybe I would've tried another round, since my urologist was willing to add more pellets. My wife bitched and moaned about my butt cheek being massively black and blue, as well my needing an ice pack for a week. It was my ass, not hers, LOL! I was fine with it. Even now she gets upset if I talk about trying pellets again. I have the same urologist(He relocated to Florida) and he still does many pellet implants. But back to my speculation about a large bolus of test, subq, slowly releasing, in a fashion similar to pellets. I might give it a try. Why I wouldn't feel subq I don't know but maybe it is a slower build up and eventually, over time, you begin to feel it. with corresponding improvements in sexual function, mood and energy.