Don't know where else to turn

[larry]

I have been following Nelson and Excelmale for many years and purchased his book about Testosterone a few years back. I really don't know who else to ask about this. I have been on test cyp 200mg/ml doing a once a week 1 ml deep thigh injection for about 8 years. I used to test out around 1100 ml/dl, but it has slowly gone down to around 600 on test day.My PSA has been creeping up and a %free test says I could have prostate cancer at 56% chance being 60 years old. All of a sudden a couple of weeks ago my blood test showed me at 970 ml/dl and a week ago showed 1171 on my lowest point of the week right before injection. Do you have ANY idea what could be going on with my body? Do you think my T is floating around in my bloodstream not being used up? I forgot to mention my hematacrit has been FLYING to the high side. I just donated blood a couple of weeks ago and I was at 58 already so I have to do 2 therapeutic phlebotomies over the next 2 weeks. Thank you. Larry

 

[Stylo]

100mg a week in one shot is not exactly consistent regardless of half life. Were all outliers in some kind of way, plus you got older and change is in the cards. More frequent shots of test C will give you a better consistency. Sometimes more T is the answer. And your T levels are dynamic.
They change constantly. You havent reached the top of your standard TRT dose. At age 60, I would be taking Cialis daily just to keep the prostate healthy. Change it up. Then stick with the new protocol.

 

[Systemlord]

You can't expect hormone levels to be static, it's just not how it works. All lab testing has a degree of error and then you have biology where everything is in a constant state of change.

 

[Vince]

When do you do Labs’s in relationship to your injection day?

 

[Cataceous]

You are overdosing on testosterone and have side effects as a result. A trough testosterone level around 1,000 ng/dL is already higher than what most normal men have for peak values. Worse yet, your post-injection peaks may be as high as 3,000 ng/dL.

To put your dosing in perspective: The average male makes 3-9 mg of testosterone per day. You are averaging 20 mg per day, with much higher numbers in the days right after your injections.

The solution is to cut your dose at least in half and spread it out over the week as much as possible, e.g. with injections every other day. This will make you feel pretty bad for some weeks, but over time you should get better.

 

[Stylo]

You are overdosing on testosterone and have side effects as a result. A trough testosterone level around 1,000 ng/dL is already higher than what most normal men have for peak values. Worse yet, your post-injection peaks may be as high as 3,000 ng/dL.

To put your dosing in perspective: The average male makes 3-9 mg of testosterone per day. You are averaging 20 mg per day, with much higher numbers in the days right after your injections.

The solution is to cut your dose at least in half and spread it out over the week as much as possible, e.g. with injections every other day. This will make you feel pretty bad for some weeks, but over time you should get better.

200mg a week is overdosing? No way. 100mg a week is not enough to be okay either. I would drop to 160 or 150 but not down to 100mg

 

[Cataceous]

200mg a week is overdosing? No way. 100mg a week is not enough to be okay either. I would drop to 160 or 150 but not down to 100mg

I stand by it. 150 mg cypionate per week is 15 mg pure testosterone per day, around 2.5 times what the average man makes naturally. How can you justify it based on his numbers? Even 100 mg is on the high side, but can be justified if it's needed to keep peak testosterone above average, depending also on SHBG and free T. I'm down to 5 mg pure T per day and it's the best I've felt in 5+ years of TRT, and I still have above-average numbers. If the only goal is big muscles then the high doses will help you get there. But if you care about your overall health then you'll consider what is most natural and appropriate for your body.

 

[Blackhawk]

The other aspect for the OP regarding total weekly dose following Cat's first post above is that labs drawn at 7 days immediately prior to next injection will show lower trough compared to troughs from multiple doses per week. So if dosed at 100mg E3.5 days (200mg/week), resulting troughs will be higher. And, then higher again if dosed EOD at 57mg (Still 200mg weekly).

Weekly dosing has its problems and in this case hematocrit of 58 is serious, likely driven unnesessarily high by both the high peaks Cataceous is referring to and total weekly dose.

I'll just echo that there could be benefit from lowering total weekly dose and increasing dosage frequency without having trough levels totally dive.

 

[Stylo]

Im not justifying anything. If he feels like shit, something has to give. Big muscles are a byproduct if you workout, but doubt most of us actually do workout properly. But back to health, going from 200mg a week to 100mg is torture, Dropping to 150mg and assessing would be a better way to handle this. Anyway, the dose should be lowered for sure.

 

[Blackhawk]

Im not justifying anything. If he feels like shit, something has to give. Big muscles are a byproduct if you workout, but doubt most of us actually do workout properly. But back to health, going from 200mg a week to 100mg is torture, Dropping to 150mg and assessing would be a better way to handle this. Anyway, the dose should be lowered for sure.

When I was on 150/week I felt like shit because of high hematocrit, elevated BP, shortness of breath with exertion, and being flushed all the time. Going through dose reduction, yes can be Hellish. Been there, done that. But it also can be medically necessary. After going through that torture, I felt BETTER AT LOWER DOSE. I experimented over close to 2 years to find out how low was still OK.

I am not at all saying what is right for me, is right for others, but for me, 84mg/week has been fine and good. But, recently with cancer I have other physiological factors in the mix and T levels dropped, so I have bumped up to 91mg/week.

The idea that 200 or 150 or whatever is fine and good when hematocrit is 58 is a very questionable concept. What is the solution then after multiple phlebotomies when ferritin tanks? Stay on high dose?

 

[Vince]

Maybe we should stop posting until Larry response

 

[larry]

100mg a week in one shot is not exactly consistent regardless of half life. Were all outliers in some kind of way, plus you got older and change is in the cards. More frequent shots of test C will give you a better consistency. Sometimes more T is the answer. And your T levels are dynamic.
They change constantly. You havent reached the top of your standard TRT dose. At age 60, I would be taking Cialis daily just to keep the prostate healthy. Change it up. Then stick with the new protocol.

I've heard of doing like 2 shots a week instead of one but I have never had a low feeling at the end of the week so I never looked into it further. How many shots a week do you do? What does the Cialis do for your prostate? I haven't ever had that suggested before.

 

[SSHSSA74]

I stand by it. 150 mg cypionate per week is 15 mg pure testosterone per day, around 2.5 times what the average man makes naturally. How can you justify it based on his numbers? Even 100 mg is on the high side, but can be justified if it's needed to keep peak testosterone above average, depending also on SHBG and free T. I'm down to 5 mg pure T per day and it's the best I've felt in 5+ years of TRT, and I still have above-average numbers. If the only goal is big muscles then the high doses will help you get there. But if you care about your overall health then you'll consider what is most natural and appropriate for your body.

Do you inject 5mg daily and when you say "pure t" do mean without ester?

 

[larry]

You can't expect hormone levels to be static, it's just not how it works. All lab testing has a degree of error and then you have biology where everything is in a constant state of change.

I've known and realize levels change but when you go along at a pretty even keel and then all of a sudden my T-levels are higher than normal, my PSA keeps going up, my % free PSA is way down indicating 56% probability of prostate cancer plus my hematacrit keeps jumping way up no matter how much blood I donate, it all begins to make me wonder and my urologist is starting to get a little nervous. He may end up doing a biopsy next.

 

[larry]

When do you do Labs’s in relationship to your injection day?

I do my labs the morning of injection day just prior to my shot

 

[larry]

You are overdosing on testosterone and have side effects as a result. A trough testosterone level around 1,000 ng/dL is already higher than what most normal men have for peak values. Worse yet, your post-injection peaks may be as high as 3,000 ng/dL.

To put your dosing in perspective: The average male makes 3-9 mg of testosterone per day. You are averaging 20 mg per day, with much higher numbers in the days right after your injections.

The solution is to cut your dose at least in half and spread it out over the week as much as possible, e.g. with injections every other day. This will make you feel pretty bad for some weeks, but over time you should get better.

I've never heard that before.

 

[larry]

200mg a week is overdosing? No way. 100mg a week is not enough to be okay either. I would drop to 160 or 150 but not down to 100mg

The doc is forcing me to cut my dosing in half. I'm concerned about my feeling doing this but not much I can do about it.

 

[larry]

I stand by it. 150 mg cypionate per week is 15 mg pure testosterone per day, around 2.5 times what the average man makes naturally. How can you justify it based on his numbers? Even 100 mg is on the high side, but can be justified if it's needed to keep peak testosterone above average, depending also on SHBG and free T. I'm down to 5 mg pure T per day and it's the best I've felt in 5+ years of TRT, and I still have above-average numbers. If the only goal is big muscles then the high doses will help you get there. But if you care about your overall health then you'll consider what is most natural and appropriate for your body.

It wouldn't be that much of a difference would it? I mean before I injected 1 ml, now I'm injecting 0.5 ml, so I would inject 0.75 to get 150mg? Seems immaterial

 

[larry]

Im not justifying anything. If he feels like shit, something has to give. Big muscles are a byproduct if you workout, but doubt most of us actually do workout properly. But back to health, going from 200mg a week to 100mg is torture, Dropping to 150mg and assessing would be a better way to handle this. Anyway, the dose should be lowered for sure.

I do workout properly and have for years. I used to eat alot and work out hard so I did get pretty big but now I have Chronic Kidney Disease and had to get off the protein to save my kidneys. I'm still in good shape but lost about 30 pounds. And now with all these high numbers, the doc required me to cut my dosing in half, 2 blood donations over the next 2 weeks, another blood draw and see him again in 4 weeks.

 

[larry]

When I was on 150/week I felt like shit because of high hematocrit, elevated BP, shortness of breath with exertion, and being flushed all the time. Going through dose reduction, yes can be Hellish. Been there, done that. But it also can be medically necessary. After going through that torture, I felt BETTER AT LOWER DOSE. I experimented over close to 2 years to find out how low was still OK.

I am not at all saying what is right for me, is right for others, but for me, 84mg/week has been fine and good. But, recently with cancer I have other physiological factors in the mix and T levels dropped, so I have bumped up to 91mg/week.

The idea that 200 or 150 or whatever is fine and good when hematocrit is 58 is a very questionable concept. What is the solution then after multiple phlebotomies when ferritin tanks? Stay on high dose?

I haven't "felt" different yet at all. Wife and I make love every day and things work fine. It's these changes in my numbers that have me worrying. CKD, prostate, high hematacrit, I have an implant....just seems like my life is destined to rid me of sex for good. The one thing in the world I love of course.