Clomid for Low Test

[Nelson Vergel]

Subjectively, not much difference between the three options, though I seem to lean towards EC/HCG, don't ask me why (I don't know)

Hey @aneuman

Are you using this protocol to remain fertile? How is your libido? Thanks for sharing. I enjoy your posts a lot and have learned a few things from your experiences.

 

[Cataceous]

Presumably because Repros wasn’t confident in their ability to show symptomatic benefit?

Do we know for sure that’s the reason Repros gave up?

It's speculation. In this detailed article Peter Bond reaches the same conclusion:

Importantly, the only endpoints were testosterone, LH, and FSH levels, and sperm concentration. Clinically relevant endpoints, such as sexual desire, erectile function, fatigue/vitality, etc. were not investigated. Seemingly also not in the other (published) trials. Or, perhaps, they were investigated, but simply never reported in the study results because the results were disappointing. And I think it might’ve been the latter, as the FDA did not approve the drug for the treatment of secondary hypogonadism, because there was a lack of measurable symptomatic improvement [10]. The EU equivalent of the FDA, the EMA, also refused the marketing authorisation for enclomiphene some time later, with similar concerns:​

​

“The CHMP [Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use] noted that although the studies showed an increase in testosterone levels with EnCyzix [enclomiphene], they did not look at whether EnCyzix would improve symptoms such as bone strength, weight gain, impotence and libido. In addition, there is a risk of venous thromboembolism (problems due to the formation of blood clots in the veins) with the medicine.”​

 

[JRos895]

It's speculation. In this detailed article Peter Bond reaches the same conclusion:

Importantly, the only endpoints were testosterone, LH, and FSH levels, and sperm concentration. Clinically relevant endpoints, such as sexual desire, erectile function, fatigue/vitality, etc. were not investigated. Seemingly also not in the other (published) trials. Or, perhaps, they were investigated, but simply never reported in the study results because the results were disappointing. And I think it might’ve been the latter, as the FDA did not approve the drug for the treatment of secondary hypogonadism, because there was a lack of measurable symptomatic improvement [10]. The EU equivalent of the FDA, the EMA, also refused the marketing authorisation for enclomiphene some time later, with similar concerns:​

​

“The CHMP [Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use] noted that although the studies showed an increase in testosterone levels with EnCyzix [enclomiphene], they did not look at whether EnCyzix would improve symptoms such as bone strength, weight gain, impotence and libido. In addition, there is a risk of venous thromboembolism (problems due to the formation of blood clots in the veins) with the medicine.”​

Thank you @Cataceous for this article.

This theory always seemed plausible to me but one thing I don’t understand is that there are several studies demonstrating symptomatic improvement with CC. You would think that if you could conduct studies showing symptomatic improvement with CC, then you could also conduct studies showing symptomatic improvement with EC. Unless:

1. The FDA has a high bar for research methodology and the CC symptom studies are not well designed and potentially biased (which I think appears to be the case from my own reading of these studies).

2. Clomid actually is stronger for symptomatic improvement. This doesn’t seem likely but it’s possible the zuclomiphene can be beneficial in balancing out the estrogen agonism/antoganism.

 

[Jucaro]

2. Clomid actually is stronger for symptomatic improvement. This doesn’t seem likely but it’s possible the zuclomiphene can be beneficial in balancing out the estrogen agonism/antoganism.

I Agree.
I don't see why enclomiphene alone would be superior to clomiphene in terms of symptomatic improvement, (something that has not been proven and is not an experience that many can report). estrogens are necessary for men as well, and a pure antagonist could only generate deficiency, hindering the effect of testosterone.
Clomiphene, for which there is also no demonstrable evidence that it produces significant symptomatic improvement, has zuclomiphene, with a partially estrogenic effect, which, in my opinion, would mitigate the deficiency caused by the blockade that it produces in enclomiphene.
Clomid has been shown to improve bone density, for example, which is probably not the case with enclomiphene alone, which probably does the same thing as tamoxifen: decrease bone density.
In my opinion, it is only my thought, enclomiphene is the one that brings with it both the desired effect, as well as the undesirable effects and the blocking of symptomatic improvement, although at the hormonal and fertility level, the positive effect is more than evident .
For my part, given the choice, I prefer clomiphene, even when I have tried many times and the loss of libido and depression have been unbearable. I also do not tolerate HCG very well when at doses for fertility, however, during the last few weeks I have combined HCG and clomiphene and this combination is much better for me, with more libido and good mood. I am also taking 0.25mg cabergoline once a week. No testosterone replacement at this moment.

 

[aneuman]

Hey @aneuman

Are you using this protocol to remain fertile? How is your libido? Thanks for sharing. I enjoy your posts a lot and have learned a few things from your experiences.

Hi Nelson,

Regarding fertility, no, absolutely not my objective. My main objective now is is health well being in general. Libido is okay. I'm 60, not 16, so there are changes you can't fight, but things are working alright. I came to realize that you cannot chase forever the fountain of youth, that's too elusive, and I would spend the time I have left chasing a dream instead of enjoying what I have now.

I did get a glance at being 20 years old a couple of years ago when I first tried HCG at 2000 IU a week. For a month I was over the moon in every sense, overconfidence, libido, well-being, etc, etc, etc, but then, after 3 or 4 weeks, it disappeared never to return again. I was presented with two choices then: continue the chase with every new possible medical treatment, protocol and dosage, or focus on the net positive and try to enjoy what I have instead of missing what I want. So I made my peace and I'm enjoying what I have.

I do feel better in general, more confident, I'm sleeping better, I hope my next bloodwork is good, I don't have any major health problems other than BPH, I started working out again, so for the moment life's good.

Here are the full numbers to compare. HCG+EC produce a much better profile (more balanced in my opinion) so I intend to go back to it. I was trying to see if I could reduce dependency on medication, that's why I dropped HCG for 15 days. Notice that the "Optimal levels" are what I consider optimal levels for me and my goals. It is based on research, as solid science as possible, but also on what works for me and what I want.

Green means optimal (for me)
White means normal (accepted lab ranges)
Red means outside lab ranges

Note on estradiol, there's a mix of sensitive and not sensitive. Those in the 20s are sensitive, those in the 40 and 50s are not sensitive.

 

[JRos895]

Thank you @Cataceous for this article.

This theory always seemed plausible to me but one thing I don’t understand is that there are several studies demonstrating symptomatic improvement with CC. You would think that if you could conduct studies showing symptomatic improvement with CC, then you could also conduct studies showing symptomatic improvement with EC. Unless:

1. The FDA has a high bar for research methodology and the CC symptom studies are not well designed and potentially biased (which I think appears to be the case from my own reading of these studies).

2. Clomid actually is stronger for symptomatic improvement. This doesn’t seem likely but it’s possible the zuclomiphene can be beneficial in balancing out the estrogen agonism/antoganism.

@Cataceous
Which of the above two theories do you think is more plausible?

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous
Which of the above two theories do you think is more plausible?

I think it's dubious that clomiphene is better on average, which leaves #1 as somewhat more plausible. But there's not enough understanding of the drugs to say anything definitive.

 

[Mfri225]

Just got prescribed Clomid for 4 weeks. I am taking it to raise my test. Does anyone have experience with taking clomid alone and no prior history of anabolics?

This is an update a year later. My total T went from 390 to 1200. I felt great on clomid. Estrogen was controlled. I do have spikes of anxiety. Would love to hear anyone's experience switching over to enclomiphene.