12.5mg Clomid enough

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

31 years old started self administering trt in June 2016 (Almost 6 years ago). Shouldn't have started TRT looking back at lab value I got from just doing one blood test (that was after a bad nights sleep). ~450ng/dL with above average Free T cause my SHBG is lowish (wasn't measured on this lab, but subsequent tests show 16).
It's been 17 days since last injection and day 5 of 500IU of HCG ED.

PCT:
1) 500IU HCG (Ovidac) ED for 2 weeks
2) 25mg clomid (Fertomid) ED for a month

Is it worth dropping to 12.5mg Clomid ED? I've read SERMS raise SHBG and do not want to raise it. Also, vision sides sound terrible.

I've lost about 8lbs but feeling pretty normal currently. Testicles seem to be growing

 

[Vince]

31 years old started self administering trt in June 2016 (Almost 6 years ago). Shouldn't have started TRT looking back at lab value I got from just doing one blood test (that was after a bad nights sleep). ~450ng/dL with above average Free T cause my SHBG is lowish (wasn't measured on this lab, but subsequent tests show 16).
It's been 17 days since last injection and day 5 of 500IU of HCG ED.

PCT:
1) 500IU HCG (Ovidac) ED for 2 weeks
2) 25mg clomid (Fertomid) ED for a month

Is it worth dropping to 12.5mg Clomid ED? I've read SERMS raise SHBG and do not want to raise it. Also, vision sides sound terrible.

I've lost about 8lbs but feeling pretty normal currently. Testicles seem to be growing

I would go with the 12.5 mg, It seems like it causes less issues. It's nice that you're doing good with 25 mg but still would lower it.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

When I was on Clomid, anything more than 12.5 every other day was too much, but that amount worked well. Because of its long half-life, it's going to be a long time (2 months or so) for you to get to steady state with the lower dose. Whenever I lowered the dose, I had to come off completely and then restart to get a good calibration for what a good dose was.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

I would go with the 12.5 mg, It seems like it causes less issues. It's nice that you're doing good with 25 mg but still would lower it.

Thanks, I will probably do 12.5mg ED. Haven't started clomid just yet. Still in HCG phase

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

@Vince Have you had a bad experience with clomid? Or are you just hearing from others?

 

[Vince]

@Vince Have you had a bad experience with clomid? Or are you just hearing from others?

I've never used clomid. I only know from other men that used it.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Is there any reason to believe Clomid could permanently raise SHBG? I would just go cold turkey if that was the case.

 

[Cataceous]

Is there any reason to believe Clomid could permanently raise SHBG? I would just go cold turkey if that was the case.

I don't think so. The observed rise is presumably due to the estrogenic effects of zuclomiphene in the liver; enclomiphene alone does not do this. The main issue, as noted by @Guided_by_Voices above, is that zuclomiphene has a very long half-life. But once it's gone there's no obvious reason why one shouldn't return to baseline.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

I don't think so. The observed rise is presumably due to the estrogenic effects of zuclomiphene in the liver; enclomiphene alone does not do this. The main issue, as noted by @Guided_by_Voices above, is that zuclomiphene has a very long half-life. But once it's gone there's no obvious reason why one shouldn't return to baseline.

That's reassuring. I think the risks of NOT using Clomid to restart after 6 years of TRT are worse than 6 weeks of clomid side effects

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

When do side effects from clomid start? I started today and feel fine

 

[bixt]

Because of its long half-life, it's going to be a long time (2 months or so) for you to get to steady state with the lower dose

Clomid has two separate and distinct half life's for each isomer. We are mainly interested in the enclomiphene isomer here, and the half life is short, in the order of a day.

The two month steady state you mention would apply purely for the zuc isomer, which has bad effects, and is not our friend here. We can ignore the zuc half life when considering PCT, but should consider it if dealing with zuc sides.

2) 25mg clomid (Fertomid) ED for a month

I lolled at this. Realistically, you would require 3-6 months PCT considering your time on TRT, gradually reducing the dose to 12.5mg twice a week. Try to get enclomiphene or even nolva if you get clomid (zuc) sides.


Blood tests to check success can be done midway during the PCT (higher serm dose), right at the end of the PCT (low serm dose) and then 3 months after PCT. The midway blood test will tell us your response while on good serm dose, the end of PCT blood test will tell us your response on the small serm dose, the 3 months post PCT blood test will tell us if your HPTA is capable of working on its own. Lots of good information can be inferenced from the data of all three tests, for troubleshooting or future use.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

There's nothing funny, buddy. I planned on doing 6-8 weeks after coming up with the original plan.
Do you have evidence that longer testosterone use requires 3-6months of PCT? Or did you just come up with that out of nowhere?

 

[bixt]

Do you have evidence that longer testosterone use requires 3-6months of PCT? Or did you just come up with that out of nowhere?

PCT is a bodybuilding thing, not a TRT thing. It was invented by bodybuilders not ex TRTers.

That said, I have only around 100 000 reports from bodybuilders of what works for PCT and what does not work. Reports based on various cycle lengths, what worked and what did not. What did not work after being "on" for 2 years + etc.

Sure, I have no published "evidence" of published papers, but neither do you for a 1 month PCT after 6 years of TRT. I provided you with advice of what I feel is a good first shot, failing which you need a more powerful PCT. Take it or leave it. Good luck.

 

[KevinS]

I have been taking Clomid for about 6 months - since freaking out about my MIA balls after 3 months of TRT. Started with 50, then 25 and now 12.5mg a day. balls are back about 75 percent. not sure I have had any other side effects, unclear of what to look for. But I would like the minimum required dose, was going to discuss going to every other day next time with the Doc next time.

 

[bixt]

I have been taking Clomid for about 6 months

I'm reading your signature, it appears you are using both T cream AND clomid correct? Any idea where your FSH & LH stand currently?

 

[KevinS]

correct, I am doing both T Cream and Clomid.
I haven't seen those, I don't know what they are, but these are my December labs, will do again in June.

Total Testosterone: 916 ng/dl
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin: 58.5 nmol/l
Free Testosterone: 17.10 ng/dl
Bio Available Testosterone: 401
Estradiol: 69 pg/ml high for a male.
I am watching Hematocrit as well and it is on the high end at 52 percent.

 

[bixt]

I haven't seen those

(LH and FSH).

Check them (draw blood before applying morning cream), as you have a 75% ball size increase, they *may* be mildly elevated. If they are, you may have found the holy grail @Cataceous seems to be seeking!

Alternatively, the ball size increase from Clomid may be due to something else entirely.

There ARE lots of reports of clomid increasing ball size with shut down LH/FSH.

@Cataceous what are your thoughts on the increased ball size from clomid + cream? (I hypothesise T from the cream drops at night and allows clomid to work its magic and give us a few spikes of LH/FSH).

 

[Cataceous]

...
@Cataceous what are your thoughts on the increased ball size from clomid + cream? (I hypothesise T from the cream drops at night and allows clomid to work its magic and give us a few spikes of LH/FSH).

One hypothesis is that a segment of the population has relatively weak negative feedback from androgens at the hypothalamus. For them a SERM alone is enough to stimulate HPTA function. It's possible that having lower testosterone at some point each day is also necessary. There is a guy over at PeakTestosterone.com who claimed to have normal LH and FSH while on the combination of testosterone propionate and enclomiphene. It would be interesting to see these numbers from @KevinS.

But as you note, if increased testicular volume is a real phenomenon when a SERM is added to TRT then there could be a reason that's independent of HPTA function.

 

[KevinS]

It would be interesting to see these numbers from @KevinS.

But as you note, if increased testicular volume is a real phenomenon when a SERM is added to TRT then there could be a reason that's independent of HPTA function.

My Primary Dr who orders my labs is pretty clueless about TRT other than being freaked out about my Hematocrit. So not really sure how to have the conversation with him about those particular labs. I live in a rural area, not real easy to find someone else without driving a couple or more hours. The place I get the T from does not do any labs and I am on my own. They weren't concerned about my balls saying ' most guys don't care about their balls if they don't want kids'. OK, I like having balls, if anything I wish they were bigger, and was freaked out when they all but disappeared. I am ok with them back to where they are, but also don't want to be taking more of a med that may cause other issues than I need to.

 

[waterbottle1258@tutanota.]

Start your own thread please.

Update:
No sides of 25mg clomid ED so far. Loads seem to be larger and less chunky. Haven't felt bad from the restart so far