Testosterone propionate for TRT

#61
I never felt good on anything less than 25 Mg cyp. I started at 20mg prop and went up to 25mg after I noticed I wasn’t feeling well in the morning until the shot see if that would make a difference but it has not. I feel best at 1500 tt and 35-40 free. A bit on the high side but works for me. I really liked the idea of the prop but just not for me.. Plus the suspension has so much more oil you just end up injecting so much more stuff into you.
Very interesting how different we all are
Yes, it's very interesting, I feel like crap with levels higher than 1200 TT ... but around 600 I jump of joy, I also rise a lot TT with relatively small doses.
 
Thread starter #64
Hey guys,

Very sorry for not getting back to anyone! I haven’t been on the site recently as I’ve been busy! I’ll get back to questions this evening!
 
#66
Thinking a bit more about it, the positive response to prop could as well have something to do with my metabolism.

When i use prop, I instantly get hungry.

All I want to do is eat, drink coffee, train and work.

Never getting this response with longer esters.

On prop it's impossible not to train for me, sometimes going even for a second round. E.g. morning and afternoon. With the longer esters I'm lucky when I train 2 times per week.
Tested them all during the last 4-5 years.
- Suspension
- Propionate
- Phenylpropionate
- Enanthate
- Cypionate
- Undecanoate
- Sustanon

Propionate is the winner for me, not even close. Drive, aggression, focus, energy. Suspension is nice as well, but hits too hard / fast for my liking.

All the other Esters come with different side effects. Water retention with some, blood pressure with others, acne with others, lethargy, dick problems.....

Some esters feel like a different drug all together. I guess the different levels of estradiol and DHT conversion make this big of a difference for me. The fluctuation in t-levels seem to be highly beneficial for me as well. After a prop injection it's like waking up, a boost of energy. Getting this everyday. Never getting this with other esters.

By far the worst side effects I get with cypionate. I would rather never take testo again before using cypionate. I guess that's why you see so many guys struggle with TRT in the US. Almost as if there is a reason they prescribe only cypionate.....

The only downside of prop is that it's very hard to get hands on pharmagrade prop and the quality of UGL prop swings widely. And you have to pin ED.
Do you mind if I ask what your test propionate protocol looks like?

Actually just found that you are doing 20mg/ day. Are you using HCG or an ai? And are you still doing well on your protocol?
 
#67
Do you mind if I ask what your test propionate protocol looks like?

Actually just found that you are doing 20mg/ day. Are you using HCG or an ai? And are you still doing well on your protocol?
I don't use neither AI nor HCG.

Plain test prop without additional supplements.

Currently running 20mg/day test prop intramuscular.

With 10mg/day I get hardly any E2 conversion, I'm six pack lean.

If I had problems with high E2 I would look into Pregnenolone / Progesterone or use vitamin E.

Protocol is not perfect, but by far the best I have found.

Would like to inject less frequent, but I cannot make longer ester work.

For anybody starting out with Prop, I would recommend starting with 10mg/day and see how it goes.

You will actually know within 2-3 days if it works for you. That's how fast you achieve "stable" levels with prop (0.8 days half life).
 
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#68
I don't use neither AI nor HCG.

Plain test prop without additional supplements.

Currently running 20mg/day test prop intramuscular.

With 10mg/day I get hardly any E2 conversion, I'm six pack lean.

If I had problems with high E2 I would look into Pregnenolone / Progesterone or use vitamin E.

Protocol is not perfect, but by far the best I have found.

Would like to inject less frequent, but I cannot make longer ester work.

For anybody starting out with Prop, I would recommend starting with 10mg/day and see how it goes.

You will actually know within 2-3 days if it works for you. That's how fast you achieve "stable" levels with prop (0.8 days half life).
What’s your SHBG at? You said you’d like to inject less frequently. Have you tried EOD injections on prop? It seems like high SHBG guys can get away with EOD injections on prop, but I doubt lower SHBG guys can, due to them excreting the testosterone faster.

And what’s your plan, just stay on the dose you’re at, or do you plan on trying to dial in more?
 
#70
What’s your SHBG at? You said you’d like to inject less frequently. Have you tried EOD injections on prop? It seems like high SHBG guys can get away with EOD injections on prop, but I doubt lower SHBG guys can, due to them excreting the testosterone faster.

And what’s your plan, just stay on the dose you’re at, or do you plan on trying to dial in more?
EOD doesn't work for me, test levels plummet mid second day.

Will keep running prop on 20mg/day.

Tried 25mg-30mg/day but it does not make a difference, so I just take the least amount that makes me feel good.

I don't get any sides, only the frequent injections are bit bothering.

Tried other protocols countless times, but as soon as I start injecting anything else but prop all hell breaks lose in terms of side effects.
 
#72
EOD doesn't work for me, test levels plummet mid second day.

Will keep running prop on 20mg/day.

Tried 25mg-30mg/day but it does not make a difference, so I just take the least amount that makes me feel good.

I don't get any sides, only the frequent injections are bit bothering.

Tried other protocols countless times, but as soon as I start injecting anything else but prop all hell breaks lose in terms of side effects.
What’s your SHBG?
 
#73
Found vitamin E to be a strong "aromatase inhibitor".

I like it especially since it doesn't seem to reduce DHT. Many of the "natural" AI's seem to mess with DHT (DIM, Zinc.....)

200-400IE are a good starting point.
Is that a subjective feeling that you have or have tested it with/without the Vit E?
 
#75
Words of warning: If you have low SHBG and are thinking of trying Propionate, don't. It's great at first - the high peak feeling. Then after some time the Cypionate that you were taking entirely leaves your body and you find the Prop gone in just a matter of a few hours. Sky high in the AM and hypogonadal in the afternoon. Just don't.
 
#76
Words of warning: If you have low SHBG and are thinking of trying Propionate, don't. It's great at first - the high peak feeling. Then after some time the Cypionate that you were taking entirely leaves your body and you find the Prop gone in just a matter of a few hours. Sky high in the AM and hypogonadal in the afternoon. Just don't.
Jason, do you have some lab values showing this? So far I haven't found a reason for different SHBG levels to have much effect on the apparent ester half life. Instead it looks to me as though low SHBG increases the metabolic clearance rate of testosterone, which scales down serum levels relative to high SHBG, all else being equal.
 
#77
it looks to me as though low SHBG increases the metabolic clearance rate of testosterone, which scales down serum levels relative to high SHBG, all else being equal.
You are correct. SHBG most certainly does affect the rate at which testosterone metsbolizes and leaves the body. I can’t even recall the rationale for trying Propionate / it was such a bad idea.

We have to inject daily with Cypionate or Enanthate because it metabolizes faster than the 3/4 day half life, so apply that same logic to Propionate which has a half life of 24 hours. I would inject at 8am and by 2pm be hypogonadal. Like I said, it was great at first. It took a while (maybe 6-8 weeks to notice this) but even my wife got scared from seeing the changes in me and wanted to know what was wrong.

I don’t have the exact lab results at hand right now but >1500 TT in the am, 600-650ish in the pm.
40ish FT in the am and dropping to mid teens in the pm. Very large rollercoaster / repeat that daily.

Just stick with the longer esters. If Cypionate/Enanthate aren’t working then try supplementing with a scrotal cream.
 
#79
...
I don’t have the exact lab results at hand right now but >1500 TT in the am, 600-650ish in the pm.
...
Are you suggesting that if you could raise your SHBG without affecting anything else that the apparent half life would be longer? I don't see a mechanism for this—how would SHBG affect the absorption of the depot of the testosterone ester?
 
#80
Are you suggesting that if you could raise your SHBG without affecting anything else that the apparent half life would be longer? I don't see a mechanism for this—how would SHBG affect the absorption of the depot of the testosterone ester?
SHBG won’t modify the half life of the ester itself, but it does have a mechanism to control uptake of testosterone in the body which is not fully understood. Much about SHBG remains unknown and many people really don’t give SHBG the credit and respect that it deserves. It does so much more than bind up testosterone making it “useless” (the thinking that bound T is useless is also not true).

Here is one recent study that I found quick. Skip to the conclusion:
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin Modifies Testosterone Action and Metabolism in Prostate Cancer Cells

SHBG has been used as one measure for injection protocol frequency for myself and others for many years. It is why those who are low are frequently doing daily injections. It is discussed elsewhere here as SHBG has been just about beat to death in older posts.
 
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