Why is scar tissue for injection sites a concern?

[Goel]

I recently switched providers to Defy - love them so far - and they changed my protocol to daily injections.
That's fine with me but raises a question: I've seen lots of comments about developing scar tissue at injection sites. I already change my sites up regularly between quads, glutes, and delts, but now going to every day I'll be even more diligent about that.

But what's the primary concern with scar tissue anyway - cosmetic, toughening texture of skin tissue, or what? Does injecting at (for example) my quads develop enough scar tissue that the injected test can't reach muscle and be absorbed as easily? I wouldn't think a 29g needle would be enough to impair muscle function but over daily injections, may it can?

I'm using 29g 1/2" syringes injected IM.

Side note: Coming up on 2 yrs I've used nothing but TestCyp from pharmaceutical companies, all using cottonseed oil as a carrier. No problems there, and warming the vial makes the draw with a 29g much easier. Defy (Empower) uses grape seed oil as the carrier and it's dramatically easier to draw and if ambient temperature is above 60s I don't even bother warming the vial before drawing. Again, it wasn't a pain with cottonseed oil, just pretty surprised that grape seed oil draws much easier.

 

[Vince]

I recently switched providers to Defy - love them so far - and they changed my protocol to daily injections.
That's fine with me but raises a question: I've seen lots of comments about developing scar tissue at injection sites. I already change my sites up regularly between quads, glutes, and delts, but now going to every day I'll be even more diligent about that.

But what's the primary concern with scar tissue anyway - cosmetic, toughening texture of skin tissue, or what? Does injecting at (for example) my quads develop enough scar tissue that the injected test can't reach muscle and be absorbed as easily? I wouldn't think a 29g needle would be enough to impair muscle function but over daily injections, may it can?

I'm using 29g 1/2" syringes injected IM.

Side note: Coming up on 2 yrs I've used nothing but TestCyp from pharmaceutical companies, all using cottonseed oil as a carrier. No problems there, and warming the vial makes the draw with a 29g much easier. Defy (Empower) uses grape seed oil as the carrier and it's dramatically easier to draw and if ambient temperature is above 60s I don't even bother warming the vial before drawing. Again, it wasn't a pain with cottonseed oil, just pretty surprised that grape seed oil draws much easier.

Search results for query: scar tissue

www.excelmale.com

 

[Vince]

Injecting into crunchy scar tissue

So I was on TRT for years and developed scar tissue in my glutes. Now I am back doing injections again and the scar tissue is hard and crunchy. I am wondering two things: (1) will this negatively effect absorption, and if so, will it merely make absorption take longer or will some of the hormone...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I recently switched providers to Defy - love them so far - and they changed my protocol to daily injections.
That's fine with me but raises a question: I've seen lots of comments about developing scar tissue at injection sites. I already change my sites up regularly between quads, glutes, and delts, but now going to every day I'll be even more diligent about that.

But what's the primary concern with scar tissue anyway - cosmetic, toughening texture of skin tissue, or what? Does injecting at (for example) my quads develop enough scar tissue that the injected test can't reach muscle and be absorbed as easily? I wouldn't think a 29g needle would be enough to impair muscle function but over daily injections, may it can?

I'm using 29g 1/2" syringes injected IM.

Side note: Coming up on 2 yrs I've used nothing but TestCyp from pharmaceutical companies, all using cottonseed oil as a carrier. No problems there, and warming the vial makes the draw with a 29g much easier. Defy (Empower) uses grape seed oil as the carrier and it's dramatically easier to draw and if ambient temperature is above 60s I don't even bother warming the vial before drawing. Again, it wasn't a pain with cottonseed oil, just pretty surprised that grape seed oil draws much easier.

It's not the scar tissue in the skin that is the problem, rather the scar tissue in the muscle. I think you are OK with only 2 years, unlike myself who has 42+ years of IM injections. As I mentioned earlier, I have places in the glutes that are impossible to inject, The scar tissue is so thick that a needle will bend. I have even had the needle completely pop off from the syringe despite being locked.

Here is a great study done on this exact problem

Banke IJ, Prodinger PM, Waldt S, Weirich G, Holzapfel BM, Gradinger R, Rechl H. Irreversible muscle damage in bodybuilding due to long-term intramuscular oil injection. Int J Sports Med. 2012 Oct;33(10):829-34. doi: 10.1055/s-0032-1311582. Epub 2012 May 16. PMID: 22592548.

Abstract
Intramuscular oil injections generating slowly degrading oil-based depots represent a controversial subject in bodybuilding and fitness. However they seem to be commonly reported in a large number of non-medical reports, movies and application protocols for 'site-injections'. Surprisingly the impact of long-term (ab)use on the musculature as well as potential side-effects compromising health and sports ability are lacking in the medical literature. We present the case of a 40 year old male semi-professional bodybuilder with systemic infection and painful reddened swellings of the right upper arm forcing him to discontinue weightlifting. Over the last 8 years he daily self-injected sterilized sesame seed oil at numerous intramuscular locations for the purpose of massive muscle building. Whole body MRI showed more than 100 intramuscular rather than subcutaneous oil cysts and loss of normal muscle anatomy. 2-step septic surgery of the right upper arm revealed pus-filled cystic scar tissue with the near-complete absence of normal muscle. MRI 1 year later revealed the absence of relevant muscle regeneration. Persistent pain and inability to perform normal weight training were evident for at least 3 years post-surgery. This alarming finding indicating irreversible muscle mutilation may hopefully discourage people interested in bodybuilding and fitness from oil-injections. The impact of such chronic tissue stress on other diseases like malignancy remains to be determined.

 

[Mastodont]

So, how much better is it to only inject with insulin needles in the long run, shallow im, is it the oil really, not the needle?

 

[Vince]

So, how much better is it to only inject with insulin needles in the long run, shallow im, is it the oil really, not the needle?

No reason to use anything else. Insulin syringes work great.

 

[Dicky]

I don't have any insight on whether scar tissue from injecting is an issue of concern. But I do rotate sites often. I like to inject primarily SubQ into my love handles. This avoids any potential muscle damage. But there are a lot of potential sites for injection in your glute area and I also inject there.

I've tried injecting into my quads. I can't do it. God bless you if you can, but for me it causes much more pain than literally anywhere else I could inject.

 

[bluerage]

I've been on trt for the past 5 years. I've never used anything more than a 27 g and rotate between the glutes and shoulders yet I have a tough time the force I need to inject. Is this because of scar tissue?

 

[Mastodont]

"Whole body MRI showed more than 100 intramuscular rather than subcutaneous oil cysts and loss of normal muscle anatomy. 2-step septic surgery of the right upper arm revealed pus-filled cystic scar tissue with the near-complete absence of normal muscle."

I´m referring to this, is it really the oil, not how thick your needle is? Sadly nobody has yet had time to use insulin syringes for 20 years to shoot test im and report back.

 

[Vince]

"Whole body MRI showed more than 100 intramuscular rather than subcutaneous oil cysts and loss of normal muscle anatomy. 2-step septic surgery of the right upper arm revealed pus-filled cystic scar tissue with the near-complete absence of normal muscle."

I´m referring to this, is it really the oil, not how thick your needle is? Sadly nobody has yet had time to use insulin syringes for 20 years to shoot test im and report back.

@Nelson has used insulin syringes for over 20 years.

 

[Mastodont]

Those oil cysts could be due to bad oil in ugl gear?

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Those oil cysts could be due to bad oil in ugl gear?

In my case, definitely not. I brewed my own for many years only using fresh USP oils. In my case I haver had over 2,300+ injections in the ventro-gluteal IM injection site. At times I did 4-6 injections per week. Over a course of 42 years i have developed scar tissue that is like injecting into a golf ball.

 

[tareload]

In my case, definitely not. I brewed my own for many years only using fresh USP oils. In my case I haver had over 2,300+ injections in the ventro-gluteal IM injection site. At times I did 4-6 injections per week. Over a course of 42 years i have developed scar tissue that is like injecting into a golf ball.

• Typical duty cycle over the years (%on vs off)
• AAS types over those years
• mean weekly dosing
• Mix and max in terms of weekly dosing

Thanks for sharing @BigTex!

 

[Mastodont]

In my case, definitely not. I brewed my own for many years only using fresh USP oils. In my case I haver had over 2,300+ injections in the ventro-gluteal IM injection site. At times I did 4-6 injections per week. Over a course of 42 years i have developed scar tissue that is like injecting into a golf ball.

2300 pins doesn't take too many years with daily injections, though you probably would use both sides. Do you have any kind of pain at the site, and is the muscle functional?

 

[Deleted member 43589]

2300 pins doesn't take too many years with daily injections, though you probably would use both sides. Do you have any kind of pain at the site, and is the muscle functional?

2300 is just a guess based on 1 x week for 42 years. Like I said for some of periods in my life I was doing in one week, 2g of testosterone, 3 vials of Parabolin plus 1-2 other injectables. Yea, I know.....stupid. But this was not someone pretending to be on TRT. No one even knew what that was back then.

I have zero pain and the muscle is functionable, but injecting into this thick scar tissue is impossible. Even with a 1.5 inch/26g. If you ever get it through the scar tissue, you can't get the oil injected. I have had fully locked needles pop off the syringe and even bent 27g's. Absolutely both side have been used. Using other areas other than the upper lateral quarter of the glutes become risky as you chance of hitting a vein are huge which can put you at risk for a pulmonary oil microembolism (POME) reaction or even hitting the sciatic nerve. Had both happen a few times. At minimal you end up with a blood mess. Especially with the 1.5" 26g's.

In 2007 I started using Testosterone Undeconate (TRT) which became a blessing because I only had to do IMs every 12 weeks, other than having to inject 3ml at a time. Switching to sub-q has been great. I have done HGH for many years micro dosing 3-4 times a day, plus various other peptides that I have used in conjunction, Never minded doing this at all. Never had bruising, bleeding, lumps or scar tissue. I started doing sub-q oil injections in maybe 2015 because of Dr. Crisler.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

• Typical duty cycle over the years (%on vs off)
• AAS types over those years
• mean weekly dosing
• Mix and max in terms of weekly dosing

Thanks for sharing @BigTex!'

Readalot, up until about 1989, I got everything I did from a medical doctor and was monitored. He owned a pharmacy and I got every thing there. This doctor had no problem writing me as many scripts as I wanted. AAS types. I don't believe there is any anabolic steroid I have not done. I have done all of the orals except turinabol. My wife beat me here and has done it. I don't believe there is any injectable that I have not done. Even exotics like methyltestosterone sublingual and cheque drops. I pulled a 785 and 800lb deadlift using cheque drops. Trenbalone didn't come until later on when you had the fina tabs. Parabolin all but disappeared in the late 80's and has lately returned. I have done anavar but for a powerlifter you just had to take too many to make it worth while.

Mean dose injectable - 2-3 grams/wk, orals - 50+/day depending on the oral. I have done 5, anadrol 50/day for a while as well as done 50 dianabol/d.

Mix and match - depending where I was in a contest cycle. 12-16 weeks out high anabolics, high in reps...gradually switching to high androgens the closer you got to a contest. That peaked your strength and aggression.

Welcome....happy to share. Like many, I was young and dumb in the past and fell for that more is better. Later on, thank goodness I lived to discover that much smaller amounts are much more effective. From 1round 1995 to around 2005 I hit my peak setting many world/national records and only using 250mg of testosterone enanthate a week. During that time it was hard to find much else and it was the old Brovel from Mexico. Easy to get but expensive.

Taking time off, I did this from maybe 20 years but just went cold turkey. Take 4 weeks off and feel like crap for 2 weeks and then back on. After about 1995, I never took off but was taking MUCH lower doses, much closer to TRT. IMHO, the day (1998) they turned anabolic steroids in to a class III drug was they day they forced millions underground unable to ask for medical supervision. What a shame! Since TRT has come about it, at least you can get medical supervision from some doctors.

 

[tareload]

Readalot, up until about 1989, I got everything I did from a medical doctor and was monitored. He owned a pharmacy and I got every thing there. This doctor had no problem writing me as many scripts as I wanted. AAS types. I don't believe there is any anabolic steroid I have not done. I have done all of the orals except turinabol. My wife beat me here and has done it. I don't believe there is any injectable that I have not done. Even exotics like methyltestosterone sublingual and cheque drops. I pulled a 785 and 800lb deadlift using cheque drops. Trenbalone didn't come until later on when you had the fina tabs. Parabolin all but disappeared in the late 80's and has lately returned. I have done anavar but for a powerlifter you just had to take too many to make it worth while.

Mean dose injectable - 2-3 grams/wk, orals - 50+/day depending on the oral. I have done 5, anadrol 50/day for a while as well as done 50 dianabol/d.

Mix and match - depending where I was in a contest cycle. 12-16 weeks out high anabolics, high in reps...gradually switching to high androgens the closer you got to a contest. That peaked your strength and aggression.

Welcome....happy to share. Like many, I was young and dumb in the past and fell for that more is better. Later on, thank goodness I lived to discover that much smaller amounts are much more effective. From 1round 1995 to around 2005 I hit my peak setting many world/national records and only using 250mg of testosterone enanthate a week. During that time it was hard to find much else and it was the old Brovel from Mexico. Easy to get but expensive.

Taking time off, I did this from maybe 20 years but just went cold turkey. Take 4 weeks off and feel like crap for 2 weeks and then back on. After about 1995, I never took off but was taking MUCH lower doses, much closer to TRT. IMHO, the day (1998) they turned anabolic steroids in to a class III drug was they day they forced millions underground unable to ask for medical supervision. What a shame! Since TRT has come about it, at least you can get medical supervision from some doctors.

Thanks for your detailed summary @BigTex. Your story goes to show you can run AAS for many many years with the right genes and come out the other side. I'm jealous but of course you are a >99.999%tile individual.

TO your point, good reviews:

https://ideas.dickinsonlaw.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3273&context=dlra

https://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1288&context=elr

I believe at the time the DEA testified they were against scheduling and that this would just create more work for them. I'll have to find the record . AMA wasn't on board either.

 

[tareload]

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[Deleted member 43589]

Thanks for your detailed summary @BigTex. Your story goes to show you can run AAS for many many years with the right genes and come out the other side. I'm jealous but of course you are a >99.999%tile individual.

TO your point, good reviews:

https://ideas.dickinsonlaw.psu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3273&context=dlra

https://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1288&context=elr

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I believe at the time the DEA testified they were against scheduling and that this would just create more work for them. I'll have to find the record . AMA wasn't on board either.

Yea, amazing how our congress decided to turn athletes into criminals by putting anabolic steroids in the same category as narcotics. Instead there should have been more research done in this area. Before 1989, people got legal prescriptions from doctors and had medical supervision using drugs that were under strict quality control. After that doctors were persecuted by the DEA and medical boards. Athletes were forced underground and steroids were controlled by organized crime. As it is now, most all black-market steroids are being produced from raw powders made in China and exported under guidance from the Chinese government. Most athletes have ZERO medical supervision and there is very little quality control in the drugs that are being taken. It has just been in the last 10 years that athletes gained access to blood testing and very few even take advantage of it. The US Congress allowed themselves to be manipulated into signing this law by WADA and IOC. Meanwhile most other countries as I found out quickly, you could cheaply buy a grocery sack full of steroids sitting in a local restaurant and no one cared, the rest you could buy them at a pharmacy. Now its as easy as ordering online and waiting on it to show up at your door step. As it is now, the DEA spends more time and tax money stopping anabolic steroid distribution that they do stopping methamphetamine, heroin, and fentanyl which by the way all are only a Schedule II drugs.

 

[tareload]

Yea, amazing how our congress decided to turn athletes into criminals by putting anabolic steroids in the same category as narcotics. Instead there should have been more research done in this area. Before 1989, people got legal prescriptions from doctors and had medical supervision using drugs that were under strict quality control. After that doctors were persecuted by the DEA and medical boards. Athletes were forced underground and steroids were controlled by organized crime. As it is now, most all black-market steroids are being produced from raw powders made in China and exported under guidance from the Chinese government. Most athletes have ZERO medical supervision and there is very little quality control in the drugs that are being taken. It has just been in the last 10 years that athletes gained access to blood testing and very few even take advantage of it. The US Congress allowed themselves to be manipulated into signing this law by WADA and IOC. Meanwhile most other countries as I found out quickly, you could cheaply buy a grocery sack full of steroids sitting in a local restaurant and no one cared, the rest you could buy them at a pharmacy. Now its as easy as ordering online and waiting on it to show up at your door step. As it is now, the DEA spends more time and tax money stopping anabolic steroid distribution that they do stopping methamphetamine, heroin, and fentanyl which by the way all are only a Schedule II drugs.

Great points. But let's be honest the advent of the AA clinics changed all this for "therapeutic" legal AAS use. That war had been won quietly. And this is great since at least you remove the uncertainty of the potency/purity concern. Of course now with the FDA coming after compounded testosterone, etc (Phase 1 see below) it's probably only a matter of time before other compounded AAS are targeted as well (@Nelson Vergel can tell us all about it). That's the nice thing about the Feds, they start with the end in mind and then design a pull through strategy to give the appearance of an impartial, well thought out process.



So I am grateful that folks have the option to be under the supervision of a "provider" with blood work, etc. Does beg the question what "provider" means in this context....medical provider or drug provider ? But I am glad people have a choice. I've just seen enough dudes who don't have the knowledge get a 50 mg/day stanozolol/oxandrolone Rx and not understand what they are doing to their lipids over 12 weeks. Not to mention the common "TRT" Rx now of 200 mg/week Test Ester and then you are optimized. And these dudes bench maybe 225 lb for 1-3 reps if that. But then that's called anabolic therapy since they don't have a FFMI of 29.

Also, for you reference:

Drug Scheduling

Drug Schedules Drugs, substances, and certain chemicals used to make drugs are classified into five (5) distinct categories or schedules depending upon the drug’s acceptable medical use and the drug’s abuse or dependency potential. The abuse rate is a determinate factor in the scheduling of the...

www.dea.gov

Heroin is schedule I.
meth is schedule II.
fentanyl is schedule II.
AAS are schedule III.