Changed my protocol 2 weeks ago after 4 weeks of 175mg of testosterone cypionate per week. Brought it down to 100mg, 50mg 2x weekly. Didn't feel anything the first week, but now I'm feeling as low as you can be. Depressed, low libido, brain fog, and overall blah. I'm still doing great in the gym, but I'm definitely feeling the lows. How long does this last? Will I have to suffer like this for the entire 6 weeks? Starting my 3rd week injection tommorow. Hoping for some relief.
Whoever Said Changing your Protocol Sucks was Right On, When does it End?
- Thread starter KenLowT
- Start date
readyforchange
Member
I changed from 140mg down to 100mg (split into 50mg 2x/week like you) 5 weeks ago and experienced a very similar experience.
I actually ended up in Urgent Care last Friday after basically having daily panic/anxiety attacks the entire week. EKG and blood tests came back "normal", they said it didn't appear anything cardiac related and must be due to the drastic reduction in dosage of my TRT.
Unfortunately, in my case, it hasn't gotten much better by week 5. I'm due for 6-month labs with Defy tomorrow morning and fear that there's going to be 3-6 weeks wait to consult with Dr. Saya... there's just no way I can endure what I'm currently feeling that much longer, so something's going to have to change sooner than that.
I did not experience this when lowering from 160mg to 140mg, so to me, this seems like 100mg is just too low for me.
Wish I had better news, but I've heard it around here that reducing dosages significantly can be hell, and in my case, that's proven to be true.
I actually ended up in Urgent Care last Friday after basically having daily panic/anxiety attacks the entire week. EKG and blood tests came back "normal", they said it didn't appear anything cardiac related and must be due to the drastic reduction in dosage of my TRT.
Unfortunately, in my case, it hasn't gotten much better by week 5. I'm due for 6-month labs with Defy tomorrow morning and fear that there's going to be 3-6 weeks wait to consult with Dr. Saya... there's just no way I can endure what I'm currently feeling that much longer, so something's going to have to change sooner than that.
I did not experience this when lowering from 160mg to 140mg, so to me, this seems like 100mg is just too low for me.
Wish I had better news, but I've heard it around here that reducing dosages significantly can be hell, and in my case, that's proven to be true.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
I'm sorry you're having a rough ride at the present time. You made a significant change and your system is dealing with it. When I went from 120mg per week, 60mg every 3.5 days, to 16mg every morning, there were days I wasn't sure it was worth it. I had been told it could be painful - it was - and some days it was all I could do not to start injecting according to the old protocol. But I hung on and I hope you will. The payoff has been spectacular. Will that be the case for you? I certainly hope so.
The potency of these hormones and the very real differences from person to person turn the dialing-in process into an adventure for many of us.
Systemlord
Member
The first 2 weeks is like the calm before the storm, week 3 is always the worst for me, then week 4 is the moment of truth. I just found out today that for the last 5 weeks my levels have been gradually declining.
Finding the right dosage for you will take time, usually at least a year so prepare yourself for the long haul.
Finding the right dosage for you will take time, usually at least a year so prepare yourself for the long haul.
Vince Carter
Banned
You guys are taking huge swings at things in the dosing department and finding out that it's the wrong way to go about this. You cut the dose in half (basically) and wonder why you feel bad.
M
MarkM
Guest
When you make drastic changes in your protocol, in this case, reducing your testosterone by roughly 45%, you are throwing your body a huge curve ball. It was still adjusting to the initial curve ball of testosterone being increased dramatically by 175 mg and before your body could get used to that you threw it the second curve ball.
TRT is a marathon and not a sprint. You will learn that making small changes and making one change at a time will benefit you more so than making dramatic changes.
TRT is a marathon and not a sprint. You will learn that making small changes and making one change at a time will benefit you more so than making dramatic changes.
I have to agree with the thoughts expressed here by the experienced guys.
Making big changes to a complex system is asking for trouble, and it may extend the problems you’re trying to resolve. This is true in business as well as medicine.
It’s hard because everyone wants the problem fixed. When it comes to feeling bad, we want it fixed yesterday! However , big swings mean big change and its hard to quantify the results. Especially with health its better to make incremental change, document the results and then adjust from there.
It’s a marathon.
Making big changes to a complex system is asking for trouble, and it may extend the problems you’re trying to resolve. This is true in business as well as medicine.
It’s hard because everyone wants the problem fixed. When it comes to feeling bad, we want it fixed yesterday! However , big swings mean big change and its hard to quantify the results. Especially with health its better to make incremental change, document the results and then adjust from there.
It’s a marathon.
M
MarkM
Guest
I think the amount of dosage adjustment plays a major role. Small adjustments are much less noticeable than very large adjustments in dosage. Some people don't have the patience to wait and go slow. That's fine but there will normally be consequences being impatient.
Is this a common occurrence, over shooting the t dosage, then having to back off? This is coming from someone with zero experience so far, but couldn't the patient insist on starting at a very low dose, and then inching their way up to the presumed "sweet spot"? You might not feel the immediate positive benefits as quickly, but you wouldn't suffer from over shooting either.
readyforchange
Member
I'm sure we could insist this, but often, when first starting out we don't know better, want to trust the doctor, etc.
If there's ONE thing I could change about my TRT experience this past year, I would have started at 100mg, taken ONLY test to see how I responded and then adjusted and added things like HCG and an AI if warranted through symptoms and labs.
Unfortunately, I was started high (160mg) and had HCG and an AI in from the start, even though fertility is not a concern, and it's been challenging to say the least.
If there's ONE thing I could change about my TRT experience this past year, I would have started at 100mg, taken ONLY test to see how I responded and then adjusted and added things like HCG and an AI if warranted through symptoms and labs.
Unfortunately, I was started high (160mg) and had HCG and an AI in from the start, even though fertility is not a concern, and it's been challenging to say the least.
M
MarkM
Guest
So many people think that having a high testosterone "number" is where they want and need to be. So they go for the largest dose possible. Many times that just isn't what they need but they are excited that the doctor is prescribing the therapy, they haven't done much if any research, and they think the higher the dose the better they are going to feel and the more "manly" they will become.
The patient could have a logical conversation with the doctor if they new ahead of time which questions to ask and if they had educated themselves ahead of time. Unfortunately most of us just jump right in the water with both feet and then realized we jumped into the deep end before learning how to swim.
13 years ago I did the same thing. I've always been one that learns from my mistakes, which means I have made my share.
The patient could have a logical conversation with the doctor if they new ahead of time which questions to ask and if they had educated themselves ahead of time. Unfortunately most of us just jump right in the water with both feet and then realized we jumped into the deep end before learning how to swim.
13 years ago I did the same thing. I've always been one that learns from my mistakes, which means I have made my share.
I agree with you guys. If I could give someone any advice starting out, I would say start as low as possible, with just testosterone, even if you are young and fertility is a concern. You can always add it in after. But starting low with no HCG or AI, and working your way up slowly I think is absolutely the best way to go about it.
But we live in a world where we want the quick fix, and always think more is better. So it's easier said than done mentally to endure the start low and work your way up slowly method.
But we live in a world where we want the quick fix, and always think more is better. So it's easier said than done mentally to endure the start low and work your way up slowly method.
WrenchHead80
Member
I disagree with you guys. I started on a small dose of 90mg a week of test C only. It completely crashed my already low numbers I started with more (have lab work to prove it at 6 weeks). I'd say if they started me on HCG at the start, I probably wouldn't have crashed since I would have been at least still making some natural T to go along with the synthetic T.
That whole horrible experience made me start thinking "more is better" then. Had to find out that wasn't the right thinking either. Luckily this forum steered me straight eventually. I feel HCG compliments Test. HCG also has other benefits other then just fertility. The AI I agree you should wait to see if you need it with labs and how you feel.
That whole horrible experience made me start thinking "more is better" then. Had to find out that wasn't the right thinking either. Luckily this forum steered me straight eventually. I feel HCG compliments Test. HCG also has other benefits other then just fertility. The AI I agree you should wait to see if you need it with labs and how you feel.
readyforchange
Member
Interesting. When you say it crashed your already low numbers, are you talking T and E or just T?
So, you're saying your body was producing more T than what the 90mg injections could supply? I wonder if a competent trt Dr couldn't look at the first lab T scores and determine what the minimum amount of exogenous T would be necessary to at least equal what your body was producing? Maybe not. I'm just asking.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
There is nothing, not one thing, that's linear in the TRT game. We know roughly how much endogenous production a healthy man produces on a daily basis. Why that translates into a level of X for person 1 and a level of Y for person 2 can't be worked out with any confidence.
WrenchHead80
Member
Yes, I mean everything. Lowered my low TT FT even more. My E I don't know what it was before starting because at the time I started, it was with my PCP, who knew close to nothing. He only tested my FT and TT. But from the crash my E came back <5.00 LOW. I don't think my E was that low before starting on 90mg.
That was my theory. Couple weeks in I felt great but then that came to a quick stop I felt. I assumed maybe that was around the time my balls shut down and I was only getting that shot of 90mg to work in my system. From all the reading I have done on TRT and other protocols I have read others do, I'd assume if I did stay on 90mg but was given HCG my levels would have at least gone up in the right direction. Maybe they wouldn't have been on the high side of in range but I'm sure I would have felt better. I may have even found I didn't need to be on the high side of in range to feel my best. As members say here, "treat the symptoms not just the numbers". But because of the crash and what I felt was wasted time and money, I became stupid and inpatient and thought I needed a lot more and fast. So I joined a place that was the opposite. They gave way too much (200mg a week with HCG) and a bad protocol to match for someone like me with a low SHBG. Luckily I found this place and members who straightened me out. So I wasn't on that protocol for long. I also found Defy being a member here.
Totally agree, few thought I'd be off the charts taking 150mg a week with HCG. But I ended up on the high side of in range. Members like Vince takes a small dose a week and hes off the charts and that's not even with a low SHBG. Everyone is different.
I think starting with 100mg isn't bad but I sure wouldn't try it without HCG also. I feel your odds of crashing or going threw the roof or highly unlikely. If you want to be inpatient then I wouldn't suggest going over 150mg to start. But I feel with everything I know now, it would have made more sense to start at 100mg with HCG and see how I would feel with a lower but good in range number. Then I could have compared that with a higher dose if I wanted too.
Update:
If it's any consolation, I'm feeling much better right now. I injected yesterday and immediately felt the energy and an emerging libido. I feel energetic, happy, and overall on top of the world. Of course it may be short lived, but this was the 3rd week of my new protocol. Hopefully it'll stay like this as this is ideal, but I want to be realistic. My next injection will be Sunday, let's see how long this lasts.
I also met with my endo who wanted me to go up to 150mg because she thought I lowered it too much, but I know better know. I'm sticking to this protocol until the 6th week and I'll see how I feel then.
If it's any consolation, I'm feeling much better right now. I injected yesterday and immediately felt the energy and an emerging libido. I feel energetic, happy, and overall on top of the world. Of course it may be short lived, but this was the 3rd week of my new protocol. Hopefully it'll stay like this as this is ideal, but I want to be realistic. My next injection will be Sunday, let's see how long this lasts.
I also met with my endo who wanted me to go up to 150mg because she thought I lowered it too much, but I know better know. I'm sticking to this protocol until the 6th week and I'll see how I feel then.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
Yep...we are our own, best advocates.
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