When you have normal T levels

[broker]

I just wanted to ask you guys something. You guys mean to tell me if any of you were a reputable endocrinologist or urologist and a patient in his 40’s or 50’s came in to see you complaining of low libido, energy, ect and you had his Testosterone levels: the tests showed his “natural total T” was 600 and his free T was also good as well as everything else. Despite those great numbers, the patient insisted on using T because he felt best with fake T levels over 1000. You guys would still prescribe testosterone knowing full well his natural T will be suppressed and he can run the risk of health issues?
You would just go by how he feels???
I also dont know anyone with healthy natural T levels who need to always give blood.
Something wrong with that picture. I would tell the patient he has other issues, probably mental and would NOT give him T. Where do you draw the line.???

 

[cigpk]

I just wanted to ask you guys something. You guys mean to tell me if any of you were a reputable endocrinologist or urologist and a patient in his 40’s or 50’s came in to see you complaining of low libido, energy, ect and you had his Testosterone levels: the tests showed his “natural total T” was 600 and his free T was also good as well as everything else. Despite those great numbers, the patient insisted on using T because he felt best with fake T levels over 1000. You guys would still prescribe testosterone knowing full well his natural T will be suppressed and he can run the risk of health issues?
You would just go by how he feels???
I also dont know anyone with healthy natural T levels who need to always give blood.
Something wrong with that picture. I would tell the patient he has other issues, probably mental and would NOT give him T. Where do you draw the line.???

I don’t think that’s the general mindset of most people on this forum. I think most people here are actually pretty conservative when it comes to recommending someone try trt. - especially compared to other trt forums.

Granted, there are a few who immediately assume TRT is the answer for everyone, but not the majority.

 

[xqfq]

You come here to pick a fight or something? There’s a less antagonistic way to phrase what you’re asking.

The assessment of hypogonadism should take into account more than just total testosterone. As I’ve learned from this forum, the “free testosterone” assay is not accurate. So calculating actual bioavailable testosterone is a bit more complicated. There are also genetic differences, androgen receptor density, amount of conversion to downstream hormones (and estradiol!) that are important. Measuring all of this is almost impossible. So listening to someone’s symptoms can make a lot of sense.

RE: giving blood- If you look at what the reference ranges are for hematocrit you’ll realize it can go up to 54% on some labs. I’m sure there are men not on TRT have levels between 48 and 52%. Here’s a video on the topic if you’d like to learn more:

It’s on anabolic steroids but it touches on TRT as well. The subject of hematocrit has been discussed at great length on these forums - if you use the search feature I’m sure you’ll find more.

Physicians prescribe drugs that aren’t “natural” every day.

 

[broker]

You think the “ anabolic doc” is the go to guy for true unbiased medical advice? Would you want your own son to be a patient of that guy ?

 

[DragonBits]

I just wanted to ask you guys something. You guys mean to tell me if any of you were a reputable endocrinologist or urologist and a patient in his 40’s or 50’s came in to see you complaining of low libido, energy, ect and you had his Testosterone levels: the tests showed his “natural total T” was 600 and his free T was also good as well as everything else. Despite those great numbers, the patient insisted on using T because he felt best with fake T levels over 1000. You guys would still prescribe testosterone knowing full well his natural T will be suppressed and he can run the risk of health issues?
You would just go by how he feels???
I also dont know anyone with healthy natural T levels who need to always give blood.
Something wrong with that picture. I would tell the patient he has other issues, probably mental and would NOT give him T. Where do you draw the line.???

If I were a doctor, I wouldn't prescribe under those circumstances.

But if I could, I would either make testosterone legal without a prescription, or reschedule steroids to allow doctors to prescribe them for non-medical purposes.

 

[Charliebizz]

I just wanted to ask you guys something. You guys mean to tell me if any of you were a reputable endocrinologist or urologist and a patient in his 40’s or 50’s came in to see you complaining of low libido, energy, ect and you had his Testosterone levels: the tests showed his “natural total T” was 600 and his free T was also good as well as everything else. Despite those great numbers, the patient insisted on using T because he felt best with fake T levels over 1000. You guys would still prescribe testosterone knowing full well his natural T will be suppressed and he can run the risk of health issues?
You would just go by how he feels???
I also dont know anyone with healthy natural T levels who need to always give blood.
Something wrong with that picture. I would tell the patient he has other issues, probably mental and would NOT give him T. Where do you draw the line.???

What’s crazy about this is they are blueing the line now with all this “optimizing“ jargon. It really ruins it for guys who are actually sick and have symptoms. I just want to feel like a normal 37 year old not like I’m 90. But we have all these guys trying to feel like they are 21 again and it’s really messing the whole hrt landscape up. Excel has a decent group of guys most that are just trying to get healthy. But the shit I’m seeing out there now is fucking nuts. That lifting dermatologist group and hormone optimization group are pretty much a group of dudes doing roids saying it’s hrt. They have men with t levels in the 3000 saying if you feel good your good. That’s what it’s all about.

Ummm last I checked most people feel good on morphine but how does that work out.

Shit Ive have 210-250 t levels and I don’t even believe trt is the answer. I’ve tried so many times to get it to work and it doesn’t I have to dig deeper. I’m so tired of the “dialed in”shit Also. But we have to understand for the people it works for they are going to swear by it and that means anyone else that it doesn’t work for they must be doing it wrong. Kind of like religion lol

 

[Nelson Vergel]

You guys would still prescribe testosterone knowing full well his natural T will be suppressed and he can run the risk of health issues?
You would just go by how he feels???

No one in this forum would agree to give this person TRT. You are right about the fact that other factors need to be explored. Bad sleep habits, depression, stress, etc may be involved. Have you got the impression that ExcelMale members are pushing for men like this one to be on testosterone?

 

[TLR]

What’s crazy about this is they are blueing the line now with all this “optimizing“ jargon. It really ruins it for guys who are actually sick and have symptoms. I just want to feel like a normal 37 year old not like I’m 90. But we have all these guys trying to feel like they are 21 again and it’s really messing the whole hrt landscape up. Excel has a decent group of guys most that are just trying to get healthy. But the shit I’m seeing out there now is fucking nuts. That lifting dermatologist group and hormone optimization group are pretty much a group of dudes doing roids saying it’s hrt. They have men with t levels in the 3000 saying if you feel good your good. That’s what it’s all about.

Ummm last I checked most people feel good on morphine but how does that work out.

Shit Ive have 210-250 t levels and I don’t even believe trt is the answer. I’ve tried so many times to get it to work and it doesn’t I have to dig deeper. I’m so tired of the “dialed in”shit Also. But we have to understand for the people it works for they are going to swear by it and that means anyone else that it doesn’t work for they must be doing it wrong. Kind of like religion lol

This reminds me of something Ive posted before......Saw an interview with Dr Rob Kominiarek where he said he can put guys in 4 categories that are on testosterone....One, they feel great and its the best thing they ever did.....Two, they feel subtly better......Three, they don't feel any big difference......Four, they get every side effect possible and feel worse......Point being we don't know how a guy is go g to react, and Testosterone doesn’t fix anything about half the time.

 

[xqfq]

You think the “ anabolic doc” is the go to guy for true unbiased medical advice? Would you want your own son to be a patient of that guy ?

Absolutely, yes. I have the utmost respect for Dr. Thomas O’Connor. I don’t think you know very much about him. I’m sending my stepfather to him soon.

He doesn’t prescribe anabolic steroids or something, his trade name was for when his practice was focused on helping men on anabolic steroids avoid delirious health consequences. He’s now equally focused on that and testosterone treatment (which he calls testosteronology).

 

[Charliebizz]

This reminds me of something Ive posted before......Saw an interview with Dr Rob Kominiarek where he said he can put guys in 4 categories that are on testosterone....One, they feel great and its the best thing they ever did.....Two, they feel subtly better......Three, they don't feel any big difference......Four, they get every side effect possible and feel worse......Point being we don't know how a guy is go g to react, and Testosterone doesn’t fix anything about half the time.

do you have a link to that interview. I’m kinda in the 3/4 category. Trt seems to help me feel less beat up but that’s about it. And then I get a lot of mental sides from it.

 

[broker]

Absolutely, yes. I have the utmost respect for Dr. Thomas O’Connor. I don’t think you know very much about him. I’m sending my stepfather to him soon.

He doesn’t prescribe anabolic steroids or something, his trade name was for when his practice was focused on helping men on anabolic steroids avoid delirious health consequences. He’s now equally focused on that and testosterone treatment (which he calls testosteronology).

You must really dislike your stepfather.
This is a greay site and Nelson does an outstanding job. That said, far too many guys are using T replacement as an excuse to do a steroid cycle. No natural 40 or 50 year old is walking aroung with natural T levels over 900 unless they are a gorilla.

 

[xqfq]

You must really dislike your stepfather.
This is a greay site and Nelson does an outstanding job. That said, far too many guys are using T replacement as an excuse to do a steroid cycle. No natural 40 or 50 year old is walking aroung with natural T levels over 900 unless they are a gorilla.

Whatever man, go somewhere else with your obvious trolling

 

[DragonBits]

You must really dislike your stepfather.
This is a greay site and Nelson does an outstanding job. That said, far too many guys are using T replacement as an excuse to do a steroid cycle. No natural 40 or 50 year old is walking aroung with natural T levels over 900 unless they are a gorilla.

I agree that it would be rare for a 50 year old to have levels of over 900. So what?

75% of men in the USA are overweight, does that make it a good thing? Should I strive to gain weight?

It's certainly not a steroid cycle to have levels at 900, even 1200 isn't a steroid cycle.

What you need to address, it is healthy or unhealthy for a 50 year old to have a level of 900-1200?

And since when is natural such a great thing? It's NOT "natural" to have air conditioning, drive a car at 70 mph or have central heat. Are vaccines natural? Our entire existence is about rising above nature. We only like to "visit" nature for short periods of time.

I strive to be better than what I would naturally be without any intervention.

 

[broker]

You are giving very poor comparisons dragonbits. Its also not natural to have blue hair, so what !! What does that mean.
The body naturally produces a certain level or attempts to produce a certain amount of a very powerful hormone ( testosterone). There is a reason why there are normal ranges and a reason the body naturally produces a certain amount unless someone has a medical issue preventing that from happening.
If a doctor pulled blood work on a normal 50 year old who took no meds and discovered his T levels were over 1000, he would probably be concerned.
Why not increase thyroid above natural ranges? Why not everything else the body produces all for the sake of “ dialing in or feeling good”.
I have no problem with using T when levels are low or low normal but when a guy has 600 or 700 levels and feels he needs to be over 1000, i find that kind of irresponsible,

 

[xqfq]

You are giving very poor comparisons dragonbits. Its also not natural to have blue hair, so what !! What does that mean.
The body naturally produces a certain level or attempts to produce a certain amount of a very powerful hormone ( testosterone). There is a reason why there are normal ranges and a reason the body naturally produces a certain amount unless someone has a medical issue preventing that from happening.
If a doctor pulled blood work on a normal 50 year old who took no meds and discovered his T levels were over 1000, he would probably be concerned.
Why not increase thyroid above natural ranges? Why not everything else the body produces all for the sake of “ dialing in or feeling good”.
I have no problem with using T when levels are low or low normal but when a guy has 600 or 700 levels and feels he needs to be over 1000, i find that kind of irresponsible,

You’re picking a fight and putting words in people’s mouths that aren’t being said here.

 

[DragonBits]

You are giving very poor comparisons dragonbits. Its also not natural to have blue hair, so what !! What does that mean.
The body naturally produces a certain level or attempts to produce a certain amount of a very powerful hormone ( testosterone). There is a reason why there are normal ranges and a reason the body naturally produces a certain amount unless someone has a medical issue preventing that from happening.
If a doctor pulled blood work on a normal 50 year old who took no meds and discovered his T levels were over 1000, he would probably be concerned.
Why not increase thyroid above natural ranges? Why not everything else the body produces all for the sake of “ dialing in or feeling good”.
I have no problem with using T when levels are low or low normal but when a guy has 600 or 700 levels and feels he needs to be over 1000, i find that kind of irresponsible,

You are changing the argument a bit.

The post of yours I was responding to, you were concerned with a 50 year old with a total T of 900 with no mention of his natural total T. If my total T remained at 600 likely I would have never seen any signs of low T and never gone on TRT, but my level was "normal" at 350 at age 43. BUT it is considered normal.

IMO 350 total T is too low for most any man, certainly too low for me.

Normal ranges are derived from testing men who are presumed healthy and simply creating a range from that. There is no attempt at all to determine what is the "best" healthiest total T range.

If they did the same thing with weight, creating a normal range, then overweight would be the natural range.

We know there is a generational decline in total T and decline in fertility, meaning the average man the same age today has significantly lower total T than the average man 50 years ago. This doesn't seem natural at all to me, that seems environmentally connected.

 

[Cataceous]

More than most, the guys on this site know that TRT comes with tradeoffs. It's not always: raise your testosterone, feel great, live happily ever after. The exogenous testosterone is unnatural enough that it can throw your system off in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. There's hemoglobin, hematocrit, estrogen, thyroid disruptions, and on and on. Some end up with reduced libido and no explanation. So the decision to start TRT is not something to take lightly, and in the case of the original example, with good natural testosterone, it's an easy one: Don't do it! Comparing someone on TRT with higher testosterone to a natural guy with lower, but normal testosterone is apples-to-oranges. The guy on TRT may need more because of the systemic disruption caused by TRT.

 

[Charliebizz]

More than most, the guys on this site know that TRT comes with tradeoffs. It's not always: raise your testosterone, feel great, live happily ever after. The exogenous testosterone is unnatural enough that it can throw your system off in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. There's hemoglobin, hematocrit, estrogen, thyroid disruptions, and on and on. Some end up with reduced libido and no explanation. So the decision to start TRT is not something to take lightly, and in the case of the original example, with good natural testosterone, it's an easy one: Don't do it! Comparing someone on TRT with higher testosterone to a natural guy with lower, but normal testosterone is apples-to-oranges. The guy on TRT may need more because of the systemic disruption caused by TRT.

great post cat!!!

 

[Roy5678]

More than most, the guys on this site know that TRT comes with tradeoffs. It's not always: raise your testosterone, feel great, live happily ever after. The exogenous testosterone is unnatural enough that it can throw your system off in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. There's hemoglobin, hematocrit, estrogen, thyroid disruptions, and on and on. Some end up with reduced libido and no explanation. So the decision to start TRT is not something to take lightly, and in the case of the original example, with good natural testosterone, it's an easy one: Don't do it! Comparing someone on TRT with higher testosterone to a natural guy with lower, but normal testosterone is apples-to-oranges. The guy on TRT may need more because of the systemic disruption caused by TRT.[/The exogenous testosterone is unnatural enough

More than most, the guys on this site know that TRT comes with tradeoffs. It's not always: raise your testosterone, feel great, live happily ever after. The exogenous testosterone is unnatural enough that it can throw your system off in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. There's hemoglobin, hematocrit, estrogen, thyroid disruptions, and on and on. Some end up with reduced libido and no explanation. So the decision to start TRT is not something to take lightly, and in the case of the original example, with good natural testosterone, it's an easy one: Don't do it! Comparing someone on TRT with higher testosterone to a natural guy with lower, but normal testosterone is apples-to-oranges. The guy on TRT may need more because of the systemic disruption caused by TRT.

living past 30 is “unnatural”. BHRT is an attempt to restore those hormone levels we had when we were younger and heathier.

 

[antelopers]

living past 30 is “unnatural”

What?