Went IM -> SubQ

[Will Brink]

I recently switched. No major reason in particular, but enough date to support it as an alternative to IM, and I only had tiny 31g 8mm on hand, decided to make the change. No blood work done to see if there's any changes and no changes to schedule. There's truly no sensation at all on injection. It's interesting you can get some stinging a bit later in the area I noticed, but the actual injection you couldn't feel if your eyes were closed.

How many do sub Q? Did you start that way or switch over at some point? Subjectively, can't say I notice any differences and didn't really expect to.

 

[Vince Carter]

Im of the ilk that thinks IM and SQ benefits or detractors really only have anything to do with the size of the needle that SQ allows a guy to use. Anything else like absorption or aromatisation is purely subjective and highly individual to say in any way that one is better than the other. In other words SQ only came about to bring (example) a 29g 1/2" insulin size/type needle over a 1" 25g.

 

[Saul]

Vince, I agree and that is probably reason enough. I don't know if it matters but maybe there was also concern about scarring with EOD IM frequency and muscle soreness from IM.

Will, I started IM, changed to SubQ for about 8 weeks, ran labs with both. Now I switch around based on what I feel like to rotate injections sites. My blood work revealed about the same T levels between IM and Sub Q.

General Question - does fat have more or less blood flow than muscle? Will that effect anything? And, over time it may reach steady state with the same levels.

 

[HealthMan]

I started subq (abdomen) and stopped because of lumps. It felt like i was injecting water. Then switched to IM and what a difference. Later i tried subq again injecting on my legs (no more lumps) But again back to feeling like i was injecting water. My bloodwork showed much lower testosterone levels on subq. Like everything TRT related it seems to be a case by case thing. Some people have the same experience as I do, other people say they feel much better and other say it doesn’t matter

 

[HealthMan]

Vince, I agree and that is probably reason enough. I don't know if it matters but maybe there was also concern about scarring with EOD IM frequency and muscle soreness from IM.

Will, I started IM, changed to SubQ for about 8 weeks, ran labs with both. Now I switch around based on what I feel like to rotate injections sites. My blood work revealed about the same T levels between IM and Sub Q.

General Question - does fat have more or less blood flow than muscle? Will that effect anything? And, over time it may reach steady state with the same levels.

Fat has much less blood flow and will affect absorption speed. My opinion is that the more fat you have the slower is the speed of absorption. So depending on where you inject might impact how fast the testosterone goes into blood circulation. If you look at diabetics injecting insulin... people with more fat usually have much lower absorption rate.
IM i think speed of absorption should be much more constant given muscles blood flow is much higher and even

 

[HealthMan]

Once steady state is reached the slower absorption shouldn’t have much of an impact in terms of testosterone levels however. So if you assume absorption is the same IM vs Subq should in theory produce same testosterone levels but that has not been the case for many people including myself.

 

[Saul]

Once steady state is reached the slower absorption shouldn’t have much of an impact in terms of testosterone levels however. So if you assume absorption is the same IM vs Subq should in theory produce same testosterone levels but that has not been the case for many people including myself.

I had read a long thread on another forum where people had lower T levels with SQ, but that did not occur with me.

I agree, should reach steady state unless the T were to 'change' or break down prior to absorption. I don't know enough about the body to know one way or the other. I had read that vaccines should not be given SQ, but that is vaccines.

I thing I have never been clear on is whether the half life of T is due to the time it take for the body to cleave the T from oil (if that is what occurs) or due to the time it takes for the Tcyp to move from the muscle/fat to the blood stream. Not that it matters, as long as it works.

 

[Deleted member 16042]

I agree that (lack of) vascularity in fat could affect your results, but I have very little body fat and so far have not experienced lumps going subQ. Seems like zero problems with uptake. My lab results with SubQ were really quite high... supra physiological at @150mg/week based on E3D. Now on reduced dosage. No question for me that SubQ works fine for me. And, IM is just painful... quads, glutes and delts, aching pain 3 days with IM.

I use 5/16" 30g

 

[HealthMan]

I had read a long thread on another forum where people had lower T levels with SQ, but that did not occur with me.

I agree, should reach steady state unless the T were to 'change' or break down prior to absorption. I don't know enough about the body to know one way or the other. I had read that vaccines should not be given SQ, but that is vaccines.

I thing I have never been clear on is whether the half life of T is due to the time it take for the body to cleave the T from oil (if that is what occurs) or due to the time it takes for the Tcyp to move from the muscle/fat to the blood stream. Not that it matters, as long as it works.

I always thought the subq absorption might have something to do with lymphatic system. I think subq absorption system of drugs is much more complex than IM (involving capillaries, lymphatic system, amount of fat in the region...). In IM drug administration the drug will have immediate contact to lots of blood and be readily absorbed. See paper below:

http://hormonebalance.org/images/documents/McLennan 05 sub C delivery DDT.pdf

 

[HealthMan]

I agree that (lack of) vascularity in fat could affect your results, but I have very little body fat and so far have not experienced lumps going subQ. Seems like zero problems with uptake. My lab results with SubQ were really quite high... supra physiological at @150mg/week based on E3D. Now on reduced dosage. No question for me that SubQ works fine for me. And, IM is just painful... quads, glutes and delts, aching pain 3 days with IM.

I use 5/16" 30g

Indeed everyone is different. If subq works for you great. It does work for a lot of people. I would prefer to inject subq (this is why I tried twice). But my testosterone levels dropped significantly and I didn’t feel good. I just feel much better doing IM.
The only way to find out if something works for you is to try. And Will is doing exactly that. Will keep us posted if subq works for you

 

[Vince]

I agree everyone is different and has a personal preference. I tried Sub-Q for a short time and didn't like it, for me using a easy touch 29g 1/2 syringe for a shallow IM is perfect. I switch to 29g because of Vince Carter recommendation.

 

[Will Brink]

Im of the ilk that thinks IM and SQ benefits or detractors really only have anything to do with the size of the needle that SQ allows a guy to use. Anything else like absorption or aromatisation is purely subjective and highly individual to say in any way that one is better than the other. In other words SQ only came about to bring (example) a 29g 1/2" insulin size/type needle over a 1" 25g.

I used 29g 1/2" for IM, so that's not the issue in my case. Per above, change was not made for any major reasons of expected superiority per se.

 

[Will Brink]

Vince, I agree and that is probably reason enough. I don't know if it matters but maybe there was also concern about scarring with EOD IM frequency and muscle soreness from IM.

Will, I started IM, changed to SubQ for about 8 weeks, ran labs with both. Now I switch around based on what I feel like to rotate injections sites. My blood work revealed about the same T levels between IM and Sub Q.

General Question - does fat have more or less blood flow than muscle? Will that effect anything? And, over time it may reach steady state with the same levels.

Much less blood flow. Some feel the levels may be steadier with subQ. Studies find both equally effective.

 

[HealthMan]

Much less blood flow. Some feel the levels may be steadier with subQ. Studies find both equally effective.

Are there any studies comparing IM vs Subq at same dosages? The only studies i have seen only show that subjects injecting Subq achieve physiological levels within range but dont compare testosterone levels using both injection methods

 

[madman]

Summary of article states that injection depth is an important variable as mean absorption times are considerably longer when the drug is shallowly injected in the adipose layer.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517388902098

 

[madman]

Regardless of injecting testosterone im or sub-q, ester side chain/injection site/injection volume can also effect the absorption rates.

There should be no difference in the effectiveness of injecting im vs sub-q. Sure some may experience bad reactions with sub-q (lumps/swelling/bruising) but the testosterone in the oily depot that is formed upon injection (im/sub-q) will eventually be released once the ester is cleaved of in the bloodstream whether the absorption is slower using sub-q method or faster using im method.

I have been injecting 75 mg Delatestryl (enanthate) every 3.5 days strictly sub-q into abdominal fat for just over a year on trt and my TT roughly 1100-1200 ng/dl and FT double the top end of the lab range!

 

[Smokey]

I recently switched. No major reason in particular, but enough date to support it as an alternative to IM, and I only had tiny 31g 8mm on hand, decided to make the change. No blood work done to see if there's any changes and no changes to schedule. There's truly no sensation at all on injection. It's interesting you can get some stinging a bit later in the area I noticed, but the actual injection you couldn't feel if your eyes were closed.

How many do sub Q? Did you start that way or switch over at some point? Subjectively, can't say I notice any differences and didn't really expect to.

Will, are you still doing Subq? I recently went to daily two weeks ago IM and switched to Subq one week ago due to easier injection. It seems Subq requires less testosterone dosage as I am feeling really high T and estrogen at 18mg per day? ( no labs yet) thanks for any feedback

 

[Will Brink]

Will, are you still doing Subq? I recently went to daily two weeks ago IM and switched to Subq one week ago due to easier injection. It seems Subq requires less testosterone dosage as I am feeling really high T and estrogen at 18mg per day? ( no labs yet) thanks for any feedback

Yup, still doing sub Q. I don't have labs to say what it's done on my end, and you'll need labs too to see what it's doing on your end. Personally, I think beyond 2X per week with common esters used is not going to add aditional benefits and I personally have no interest in being a human pin cushion. 18mg daily common T ester sounds too high, but gets labs and see.

 

[Smokey]

Yup, still doing sub Q. I don't have labs to say what it's done on my end, and you'll need labs too to see what it's doing on your end. Personally, I think beyond 2X per week with common esters used is not going to add aditional benefits and I personally have no interest in being a human pin cushion. 18mg daily common T ester sounds too high, but gets labs and see.

Thanks. I went back to IM at 16 mg and now feel normal with no AI. I tried twice weekly and estro climbed up to 50 so giving daily a try

 

[Pongo]

I tried SubQ injections with 2 different manufacturers of Test Cyp, one was suspended in Grapseed oil not sure about the other but both left nasty red lumps on my stomach so went back to easy IM top of thigh size 29 1" injections.