Trying not to fixate on the numbers.

[Driven Mad]

Was hoping to just get another set of eyes on my numbers. If I've learned anything from this site it's not to fixate on just the numbers but also consider how one is feeling. Here lately I think I'm going the wrong direction. Not feeling so great, stamina is falling off, gains in the gym are nil, BMI creeping up etc. At first glance it appears my SHBG is going up while E2 and T levels are going down but I have no idea why? Is my E2 low enough to be causing issues? Or are these numbers normal and I should checking something else? Been on TRT for a year, 50mg TC E3.5D, 60 years old, very active, run 12-15 miles week, weight training 4 days week etc. Any comments/suggestions are welcome and appreciated.


9/17
TOTAL-T 800 (250-1100) ng/dL
FREE-T 101.6 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL
HCT 49.6 (39.0-50.0) %
SHBG 34 (22-77) nmol/L
ESTRADIOL XX (got the wrong test)

12/17
TOTAL-T 904 (250 - 1100) ng/dL
FREE-T 189 (35 - 155) pg/mL
HCT 46.9 (39 - 50) %
SHBG Serum (Not tested)
ESTRADIOL XX (Got the wrong test)

1/18
ESTRADIOL, Sensitive - 19.2 pg/mL (8.0 - 35.0)

4/18
TOTAL-T 623.6 (264.0 - 916.0) ng/dL
FREE-T(Direct) 13.2 (6.6 - 18.1) pg/mL
HCT 46.7 (37.5 - 51.0) %
SHBG Serum 47.9 (19.3 - 76.4) nmol/L
ESTRADIOL, Sensitive 14.8 pg/mL (8.0 - 35.0)

 

[sh1973]

Was hoping to just get another set of eyes on my numbers. If I've learned anything from this site it's not to fixate on just the numbers but also consider how one is feeling. Here lately I think I'm going the wrong direction. Not feeling so great, stamina is falling off, gains in the gym are nil, BMI creeping up etc. At first glance it appears my SHBG is going up while E2 and T levels are going down but I have no idea why? Is my E2 low enough to be causing issues? Or are these numbers normal and I should checking something else? Been on TRT for a year, 50mg TC E3.5D, 60 years old, very active, run 12-15 miles week, weight training 4 days week etc. Any comments/suggestions are welcome and appreciated.


9/17
TOTAL-T 800 (250-1100) ng/dL
FREE-T 101.6 (35.0-155.0) pg/mL
HCT 49.6 (39.0-50.0) %
SHBG 34 (22-77) nmol/L
ESTRADIOL XX (got the wrong test)

12/17
TOTAL-T 904 (250 - 1100) ng/dL
FREE-T 189 (35 - 155) pg/mL
HCT 46.9 (39 - 50) %
SHBG Serum (Not tested)
ESTRADIOL XX (Got the wrong test)

1/18
ESTRADIOL, Sensitive - 19.2 pg/mL (8.0 - 35.0)

4/18
TOTAL-T 623.6 (264.0 - 916.0) ng/dL
FREE-T(Direct) 13.2 (6.6 - 18.1) pg/mL
HCT 46.7 (37.5 - 51.0) %
SHBG Serum 47.9 (19.3 - 76.4) nmol/L
ESTRADIOL, Sensitive 14.8 pg/mL (8.0 - 35.0)

First of all whenever SHBG rises your estradiol and free t will drop, perfectly normal. As far as the shbg rising, there are numerous factors including medications that can cause an elevation. You state you're running 12-15 miles per week and weightlifting four days a week, which in itself can raise shbg. Too much exercise in certain cases can be detrimental in many ways and one of which is elevating shbg. I have always had shbg in the 60-80 range and really can't change that no matter what I try. Look at anything you're doing as far as diet changes, medications, alcohol etc... Anything that compromises liver function will elevate shbg. Hope that helps.

 

[IronKnight]

Your Total T has substantially decreased by 200-300 points, this might explain the increase in SHBG (more T = lower SHBG, usually).
High SHBG is a compelling reason to go higher with the T dosage, to ensure your Free T is in an optimal range, and you will feel much better then.
I would suggest to try 150mg / week, for example using 2 x 75mg shots in your same protocol, then see where your Free T ends up, and record how you feel before you look at the lab results. A level of 13.2 pg/mL is a bit on the poor side for optimal results in the gym. Also that range is BS, Free T (Direct) above 20 pg/mL is less than half of the natural range.
On another note, running and lifting tell your body to adapt in two completely different ways, they are basically opposing goals and your results should suffer, that is to be expected:
- running tells your body to be lighter, that muscle mass is not that important, and adaptation focuses on endurance (i.e. look at marathon runners, they are far from jacked and you can hardly even see their abs despite looking like skeletons)
- lifting tells your body to grow muscle, to get ready to lift heavy things, the adaptation is completely different from running.

If I were you, I would ditch the running, at age 60 you are risking joint injuries, compromising your gym results and increasing your risk for sarcopenia, because running will waste muscle. But if you like it, then it's your life and you may do as you wish

 

[Vince Carter]

How consistent are you with your shots from one time to the next time? And your blood work, when is that being done relative to your shots? I ask because the variance in your tests is only explained one way and that's not being consistent from one shot to the next, using different labs each time, and getting different tests. Look at your lab ranges, you have a different Free T test, different SHBG tests in there. Even the HCT lab has a different range from one to the next.

You can't hold things side-by-side for comparison when youre introducing variables such as you are.

 

[ratbag]

You didn't say what does of T or HCG or other meds you are taking and you didn't say when you get your labs?

 

[Dave B.]

On another note, running and lifting tell your body to adapt in two completely different ways, they are basically opposing goals and your results should suffer, that is to be expected:
- running tells your body to be lighter, that muscle mass is not that important, and adaptation focuses on endurance (i.e. look at marathon runners, they are far from jacked and you can hardly even see their abs despite looking like skeletons)
- lifting tells your body to grow muscle, to get ready to lift heavy things, the adaptation is completely different from running.

If I were you, I would ditch the running, at age 60 you are risking joint injuries, compromising your gym results and increasing your risk for sarcopenia, because running will waste muscle. But if you like it, then it's your life and you may do as you wish

People who don't run think 12 miles per week is a lot -- but it really isn't. It's 30 minutes on the treadmill 4x per week (or less). Driven Mad is not marathon training, this is the kind of running that people do who train to run 5K or 10K runs.

That said, adding 4 days of lifting on top of the running could be leaning toward overtraining. I only lift weights 3 days per week and I'm 15 years younger...

 

[Driven Mad]

Wow, these responses are exactly what I was looking for. Really have me thinking about different things. It would be a difficult concept for me to consider exercise detrimental. I mean what's the point of testosterone replacement if not to help restore normal athletic performance? However based on the opinions here I'm going to consider altering my cardio/strength training ratio and possibly begin favoring resistance training more. It's just that my routine hasn't change but the numbers are skewing anyway.

Vince,
I inject every 84 hours nearly to the hour and labs are drawn at trough before next injection. The difference in the ranges are first 2 sets are Quest and last 2 are Labcorp. Be nice if they could get together on these but at least the UOM is the same. The one I'm having trouble understanding is the "direct" Free-T numbers. Not sure how to compare those with the standard serum test.


Dave,
Thanks for recognizing the fact that 12-15 a week really is just maintenance but I agree it's possible I might be over doing it. I'm just one of the types that thinks if I can do it, I should do it. The body has been good to me. Nothing hurts. Knees are fine. I like running.

Anyone,
Is an E2 level of 14.8 pg/ml considered low? If so, what are the symptoms?

Thanks again for all the great input. It really helps.

I'm Driven Mad

 

[Driven Mad]

A level of 13.2 pg/mL is a bit on the poor side for optimal results in the gym.

So what is a good level based on this range?

 

[IronKnight]

So what is a good level based on this range?

I would personally shoot for the high side of the range, as long as:
1) You are feeling good there
2) You can control the side effects there
3) You are getting the results you want there

The high side of Free T in some countries (like Spain) is 42.5ng/ml, see:
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...f-high-Testosterone-levels-achieved-naturally

Probably a range on the optimal side where side effects can be controlled without too much hassle and you will hopefully feel pretty good is 20-35, but you need to experiment for yourself to see if this will work for you or not.