TRT resistant, I am on a very low dose of testosterone, but I have high blood levels

[Trt909]

I use only 50mg/week testoterone enanthate and have after 4 days of last injection: 778ng/dl, E2 is 87pmol/l, shgb 20 nmol/l. Also slightly elevated TSH 3.6 ~ 5 mIU/L.

I feel practically nothing from testosterone, no increased energy, no libido, no drive.

If I use HCG 500iu then I'm starting to feel some effect, beter mood, more eenrgy, little better libido.

Why might testosterone enanthate not work for me at all? it feels like it enters the blood and is completely inactive in my body.

 

[Systemlord]

Why might testosterone enanthate not work for me at all?

I had the same experience, cypionate had a more potent effect on me. I believe it has to due with me being sensitive to the half-life difference. Daily had a more profound effect than every other day dosing.

I also have metabolic issues related to my type 2 diabetes, so that might be a factor as well needing frequent dosing. It wasn’t always like this, I did respond to TRT once weekly and twice weekly at one point.

 

[Cataceous]

...
I feel practically nothing from testosterone, no increased energy, no libido, no drive.
...

Testosterone is a factor in these parameters, but it's only one of many. If testosterone was already adequate then TRT might not appear to do much. Testosterone cypionate is virtually interchangeable with testosterone enanthate, so it's unlikely that switching would make any difference. Even at trough your free testosterone is at top-of-range, implying a relatively low clearance rate. You could experiment with lower doses to achieve physiological free testosterone throughout each injection cycle. If you don't see improvements after some months of that then you need to look elsewhere. It's been said that some symptoms of hypothyroidism can be mistaken for those of hypogonadism.

 

[Coconutz]

Testosterone is a factor in these parameters, but it's only one of many. If testosterone was already adequate then TRT might not appear to do much. Testosterone cypionate is virtually interchangeable with testosterone enanthate, so it's unlikely that switching would make any difference. Even at trough your free testosterone is at top-of-range, implying a relatively low clearance rate. You could experiment with lower doses to achieve physiological free testosterone throughout each injection cycle. If you don't see improvements after some months of that then you need to look elsewhere. It's been said that some symptoms of hypothyroidism can be mistaken for those of hypogonadism.

This is not true regarding esters in real life, just on paper. Many men, including myself, feel better on one ester than the other., and theres really no explanation. Its the way our bodes react to the ester, not the testosterone. I hate the way cypionate makes me feel. My body needs Enanthate as a long ester. Ive read some men reporting having higher cortisol levels on cypionate than enanthate. Which absolutely should not be on paper. Enanthic Acid vs Cypionic Acid obviously has some different effects in the body. Im baffled how some of you guys can get by on such low doses. Your dosage would have me wanting to jump out a window. Id be willing to bet the reason you dont feel testosterone is your dosage is too low coupled with sluggish thyroid.

 

[Trt909]

My dosage is very low, but my blood markers is in good range, maybe need to look to thyroid function.

 

[Systemlord]

I feel practically nothing from testosterone, no increased energy, no libido, no drive.

I had the same problem, started TRT with iron saturation abnormally low, then I found iron and vitamin D low, after raising both of these, the T effects became more noticeable. I did have both of these deficiencies a second time, each at separate times and boy do the effects of T greatly diminish!

 

[Cataceous]

This is not true regarding esters in real life, just on paper. Many men, including myself, feel better on one ester than the other., and theres really no explanation. Its the way our bodes react to the ester, not the testosterone. I hate the way cypionate makes me feel. My body needs Enanthate as a long ester. Ive read some men reporting having higher cortisol levels on cypionate than enanthate. Which absolutely should not be on paper. Enanthic Acid vs Cypionic Acid obviously has some different effects in the body. Im baffled how some of you guys can get by on such low doses. Your dosage would have me wanting to jump out a window. Id be willing to bet the reason you dont feel testosterone is your dosage is too low coupled with sluggish thyroid.

In the absence of controlled testing people are able to believe many things that probably aren't true. It's quite plausible to have some kind of negative reaction to the ester or carrier oil or preservatives. But any claim that this affects utilization of testosterone is pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see you do blinded testing with enanthate and cypionate using the same carrier oil and preservatives. It would be interesting to see if you could tell them apart.

I am firmly opposed to your more-is-better thinking. Higher doses are an invitation to side effects, and usually do not improve things, except for athleticism. The OP already has over-range free T, and you would put him higher still. That is poor advice.

 

[Coconutz]

In the absence of controlled testing people are able to believe many things that probably aren't true. It's quite plausible to have some kind of negative reaction to the ester or carrier oil or preservatives. But any claim that this affects utilization of testosterone is pretty far-fetched. I'd like to see you do blinded testing with enanthate and cypionate using the same carrier oil and preservatives. It would be interesting to see if you could tell them apart.

I am firmly opposed to your more-is-better thinking. Higher doses are an invitation to side effects, and usually do not improve things, except for athleticism. The OP already has over-range free T, and you would put him higher still. That is poor advice.

"Its the way our bodes react to the ester, not the testosterone" QUOTE

You need to re read what i wrote my friend. I never said testosterone doesnt get utilized. I said people have reactions to the ester. which is why some people feel like shit on different esters with the exact same testosterone levels.

Brother, ive been my own guinea pig since the 90s, and HAVE done blind tests. I brew my own, and have tried every oil under the sun. Why would i take cypionate when ive tried over and over again over the last 2 decades?? it just doesnt work for some people. Im not the only one. I have nothing to prove to you or anybody on here. Im telling you what works for ME, and MY observations manipulating MY hormones for 2 decades. Thats called experience my young lads. You can disagree with MY protocol all you want because it doesnt work for YOU. I dont disagree with YOUR protocol, its just not the correct one for ME. Do you understand now that this isnt a one size fits all approach?? How do you know the OP wouldnt feel 100 times better if he tried a different protocol with more test and optimized thyroid?? You dont. You assume, and ya know what they say about that, right??

I think people 'side effects' are just people being fearful hypochondriacs. I started my online presence waaaaaaay back in the day on bodybuilding forums. It kinda amuses me how THIS site everybody complains of such petty little side effects. how come nobody complains about side effects on bodybuilding boards blasting thousands upon thousands milligrams of testosterone?? Know why?? men need more testosterone than a man in a white coat and insurance companies will tell you. Take your health into your own hands and dose your testosterone till you feel better. Theres two types of men in this world. Ones that are self sufficient and do what they want, and ones that do what they are told. Doctors dont get paid when they dont have sick patients.

For ME, more than what the OP is taking IS necessary. NOT for athleticism, for libido and properly functioning penis. i built my frame with anabolics looong ago. i cant help having an athletic body at this point, so maybe men like me NEED more testosterone from past hormone and AI exposure to function. hell, i need exogenous estrogen now too. I WISH i could get away with dosing at much lower doses. i just cant function when ive tried countless times. Ive dosed all the way down 10mg a day, on cypionate AND enanthate, and sustanon, and prop, in cotton seed oil, grape seed oil, safflower oil, sesame oil, mct oil, EO, and id rather be dead. (blind test) lol So your FIRMLY opposing what works for other men is a pretty naive way of approaching a customized TRT protocol for them, so who is giving bad advice here? Id feel like garbage if i listened to YOU. As we ALL know this is not a one size fits all treatment.

everybody needs to understand the INSURANCE companies dictate the testosterone ranges they feel appropriate. Notice they keep getting lower and lower?? nobody knows what a healthy mans testosterone levels were before all these chemicals were invented. men no longer produce testosterone the way they once did because of all the endocrine disrupting chemicals in our day to day life. Insurance lower ranges so they dont have to pay for treatment. Blue cross blue shield determines whats 'physiological'. low testosterone levels make men complacent and fearful, which is all i read on here. mens fear of 'side effects' and taking a doctors orders as holy writ.

The only advice i have for any man on here... take your health into your own hands and make YOURSELF feel better, and dont listen to anybody else until you try it for yourself. Just like anything in life. nobodys EVER died from doubling the testosterone dose a DOCTOR gives them for 8 weeks to try a new protocol. I feel like a million dollars on my protocol that a doctor would not even want to treat the same way i do. to each their own my brothers. good luck

 

[Cataceous]

"Its the way our bodes react to the ester, not the testosterone" QUOTE

You need to re read what i wrote my friend. I never said testosterone doesnt get utilized. I said people have reactions to the ester. which is why some people feel like shit on different esters with the exact same testosterone levels.
...

You in turn should reread what I said. I never said you made the claim about utilization—but because many would read that into it, I include the admonition. Your statement about feeling bad with the wrong ester is vague and subject to misinterpretation. You reinforce it by saying flat out that cypionate "doesn't work". Do you mean to say that it works but causes side effects unrelated to testosterone? Can you provide some information on how the metabolism of these two fatty acids may differ to the point of causing side effects with one but not the other?

... How do you know the OP wouldnt feel 100 times better if he tried a different protocol with more test and optimized thyroid?? You dont. You assume, and ya know what they say about that, right??
...

It's well established in the scientific literature that once a man has an adequate level of testosterone, more is not helpful to the parameters of interest to the OP. In this case the man is already at an average level well above the normal range. With this as background I am pretty comfortable in saying that more testosterone would not be useful. I also have a large list of posts where men have said they had improvements by lowering the dose and getting back into the normal range. Do you really think there are no negative consequences from supraphysiological levels of hormones? Does testosterone get a special exemption compared to all the other hormones?

 

[Coconutz]

You in turn should reread what I said. I never said you made the claim about utilization—but because many would read that into it, I include the admonition. Your statement about feeling bad with the wrong ester is vague and subject to misinterpretation. You reinforce it by saying flat out that cypionate "doesn't work". Do you mean to say that it works but causes side effects unrelated to testosterone? Can you provide some information on how the metabolism of these two fatty acids may differ to the point of causing side effects with one but not the other?


It's well established in the scientific literature that once a man has an adequate level of testosterone, more is not helpful to the parameters of interest to the OP. In this case the man is already at an average level well above the normal range. With this as background I am pretty comfortable in saying that more testosterone would not be useful. I also have a large list of posts where men have said they had improvements by lowering the dose and getting back into the normal range. Do you really think there are no negative consequences from supraphysiological levels of hormones? Does testosterone get a special exemption compared to all the other hormones?

You still dont understand insurance companies dictate what physiological hormone ranges are.. Read all the scientific literature you want saying 'adequate testosterone' level that the insurance companies set lol. I have nothing left to discuss with you until you understand this concept. i can give you just as many reports of guys feeling better with higher testosterone doses.

When i said cypionate doesnt work, i meant it doesnt work for ME the way enenthate does. . Of course it raises my test levels, but i just feel soooo much better on enanthate. more motivation, mental clarity. and much higher libido. My erections are my definitive proof, which your gonna have to just take my word for. I have no written evidence, nor motivation, other than my desire to help some men feel better. Does your scientific literature, explain why my self and MANY pthers feel better on either cyp or enanthate? probly not. Theres only one of 2 reason for it. the Esters, or genetics.. pretty simple process of elimination. Have YOU tried both esters numerous different times throughout the years to make your OWN conclusion, or are you just repeating things you read?

Im living breathing proof that I NEED higher testosterone levels than what insurance companies tell me. What does your scientific literature say about ME? exactly.. This ISNT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL APPROACH.

Who knows what every single man on trt is goint to be like when they are 90. This is a live beta test for us all. Were learning things about this by the day. I mean yesterday e2 was the devil. today men supplement it. This is too new to have definitive concrete proof. which is why some doctors that some so worship, give cookie cutter trt schedues with ais. because were all still learning about this, even doctors.. One things for sure. id rather feel amazing NOW, that worry about what my life will be like when im 90 in a diaper. IIIFFFFFFFF there is detremental effects of testosterone levels higher than what insurance companies set as 'physiological', those are the years i want shaved off of my life. i mean drinking too much water will kill you. This is treatment because our bodys are obviously fucked if we need exogenous hormones to operate. Why feel average and not 100%?? FEAR from a for profit medical system thats tells you things to be afraid of and gets rich by it.. thats why.

Ill say it till im blue in the face. DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL BETTER AND TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN HEALTH MY BROTHERS. dont knock it till ya tried it. What do you have to lose? you can always go back to average levels if you so chose.

 

[tareload]

You still dont understand insurance companies dictate what physiological hormone ranges are.. Read all the scientific literature you want saying 'adequate testosterone' level that the insurance companies set lol. I have nothing left to discuss with you until you understand this concept. i can give you just as many reports of guys feeling better with higher testosterone doses.

When i said cypionate doesnt work, i meant it doesnt work for ME the way enenthate does. . Of course it raises my test levels, but i just feel soooo much better on enanthate. more motivation, mental clarity. and much higher libido. My erections are my definitive proof, which your gonna have to just take my word for. I have no written evidence, nor motivation, other than my desire to help some men feel better. Does your scientific literature, explain why my self and MANY pthers feel better on either cyp or enanthate? probly not. Theres only one of 2 reason for it. the Esters, or genetics.. pretty simple process of elimination. Have YOU tried both esters numerous different times throughout the years to make your OWN conclusion, or are you just repeating things you read?

Im living breathing proof that I NEED higher testosterone levels than what insurance companies tell me. What does your scientific literature say about ME? exactly.. This ISNT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL APPROACH.

Who knows what every single man on trt is goint to be like when they are 90. This is a live beta test for us all. Were learning things about this by the day. I mean yesterday e2 was the devil. today men supplement it. This is too new to have definitive concrete proof. which is why some doctors that some so worship, give cookie cutter trt schedues with ais. because were all still learning about this, even doctors.. One things for sure. id rather feel amazing NOW, that worry about what my life will be like when im 90 in a diaper. IIIFFFFFFFF there is detremental effects of testosterone levels higher than what insurance companies set as 'physiological', those are the years i want shaved off of my life. i mean drinking too much water will kill you. This is treatment because our bodys are obviously fucked if we need exogenous hormones to operate. Why feel average and not 100%?? FEAR from a for profit medical system thats tells you things to be afraid of and gets rich by it.. thats why.

Ill say it till im blue in the face. DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL BETTER AND TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN HEALTH MY BROTHERS. dont knock it till ya tried it. What do you have to lose? you can always go back to average levels if you so chose.

I give you credit...you definitely are operating on a higher mental bandwidth than enackers, dbossa or yeti308 over at the ole TNation. At first I thought this was enackers but I wouldn't put you down like that.

Evidently your body not a fan of pentyl groups.

Sesame oil vs cottonseed oil and BA/BB vs chlorobutanol as additives should also enter the discussion.

Glad you found what works for you.

 

[tareload]

Greatest hits...

Search results for 'baby dose @enackers ' - T NATION

The Community for Enhanced Fitness

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Coconutz]

I give you credit...you definitely are operating on a higher mental bandwidth than enackers, dbossa or yeti308 over at the ole TNation. At first I thought this was enackers but I wouldn't put you down like that.

Evidently your body not a fan of pentyl groups.



View attachment 29051


View attachment 29052








Sesame oil vs cottonseed oil and BA/BB vs chlorobutanol as additives should also enter the discussion.

Glad you found what works for you.

Appreciate it my friend! i sure hope you feel amazing on your protocol as well. I wouldnt wish the way i felt UNDER A DOCTORS CARE, on my worst enemy. For a message board that are full of doctors patients that feel like shit, isnt this a red flag???

nope brother, im me and dont post much because i live in the real world. im just some random dude from the internet saying what works for me hoping this will reach someone else in siiliar situations EXACTLY. theres something that affects the body than just testosterone itself.

Danny bossa motivated me on youtube to stop using aromasin a few years ago. That man saved my life. But at first i disagreed with him about not keeping test levels over the range. because i thought my doctor was right. boy did i learn a years long EXPENSIVE lesson of going thru doctors for trt. THEN i learned about the insurance dictating the hormone ranges. then it allllll made sense.. on my own i started dosing until i felt good. best decision of MY life. Hey look everybody! danny was right! along with many others. dont worry, im not gonna preach this though. The information is out there for all to see if they want.too many peoples egos are too big to try anything new, and have no critical thinking skills outside of what a man in a white labcoat says.

 

[Cataceous]

You still dont understand insurance companies dictate what physiological hormone ranges are.. ...

You read it on the Internet so it must be true? But you need to enlarge your conspiracy theory to include researchers like Vermeulen, who are also determining reference ranges. Not sure how the insurance companies got to them, but I'm sure you'll think of something.

... you can always go back to average levels if you so chose.

Yet the OP is already operating at levels that are not just above-average, but above-range. Maybe he should try normal levels before shooting the moon.

 

[tareload]

But you need to enlarge your conspiracy theory to include researchers like Vermeulen, who are also determining reference ranges.

Shhhh...don't tell anyone Alex Vermeulen has been a plant for the insurance companies overseas in Belgium since the 1970s...

Testosterone secretion and metabolism in male senescence​

Testosterone secretion and metabolism in male senescence - PubMed

Testosterone secretion and metabolism in male senescence

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Behold all those 1500 ng/dl natty beasts!!!

Vermeulen A - Search Results - PubMed

Vermeulen A - Search Results - PubMed

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[tareload]

Studies on the binding of testosterone to human plasma

Binding of testosterone by plasma proteins has been studied by equilibrium dialysis and Sephadex® filtration. Testosterone in human plasma is bound by…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Coconutz]

LMAO WOW Lets see some studies well BEFORE the invention of thousands of endocrine disruption chemicals in daily life, on MORE than 154 men out of how many billion??. How do we know the health of these men prior to the test? any smokers? alcoholics? diabetics?? this doesnt prove shit except you trying to throw something in my face about my insurance comment. which the ranges absolutely look HIGHER than they are today. Can you explain that to me without the word conspiracy?? lol.

This is 1971 smack dab in the middle of the vietnam war with EVERYBODY on the planet being exposed to whatever chemicals the war machine was playing with at the time. Appreciate the research tho, however its too recent. I want to see some studies from 1934, the year before testosterone was discovered. oh wait, there are none.. it was quite comical they way the say testosterone levels stay the SAME from age 20-50. lol FALSE. As we all know some boys dont even go thru puberty anymore. Lets see that research explain that. Not once was SHBG discussed. etc etc..

ya done???? cause i am. i dont give a shit about any of you clowns feeling better now. im not going to stoop to a low testosterone mens level and argue like a bitch why my trt protocol is different than theirs. Go wipe your ass with your antique papers. Ill live in the real world and not be afraid. we all die fuckers. catch yall on the flip side.

 

[tareload]

LMAO WOW Lets see some studies well BEFORE the invention of thousands of endocrine disruption chemicals in daily life, on MORE than 154 men out of how many billion??. How do we know the health of these men prior to the test? any smokers? alcoholics? diabetics?? this doesnt prove shit except you trying to throw something in my face about my insurance comment. which the ranges absolutely look HIGHER than they are today. Can you explain that to me without the word conspiracy?? lol.

This is 1971 smack dab in the middle of the vietnam war with EVERYBODY on the planet being exposed to whatever chemicals the war machine was playing with at the time. Appreciate the research tho, however its too recent. I want to see some studies from 1934, the year before testosterone was discovered. oh wait, there are none.. it was quite comical they way the say testosterone levels stay the SAME from age 20-50. lol FALSE. As we all know some boys dont even go thru puberty anymore. Lets see that research explain that. Not once was SHBG discussed. etc etc..

ya done???? cause i am. i dont give a shit about any of you clowns feeling better now. im not going to stoop to a low testosterone mens level and argue like a bitch why my trt protocol is different than theirs. Go wipe your ass with your antique papers. Ill live in the real world and not be afraid. we all die fuckers. catch yall on the flip side.

Haha if I had you in person I would buy you the beverage of your choice Big @Coconutz . You are never dull. Peace Brother.

See @Nelson Vergel ...Big @Coconutz and readalot can get along.

Yeah we don't have any reasonable TT measurement before about 1968. We will never know.

 

[Fortunate]

"Its the way our bodes react to the ester, not the testosterone" QUOTE

You need to re read what i wrote my friend. I never said testosterone doesnt get utilized. I said people have reactions to the ester. which is why some people feel like shit on different esters with the exact same testosterone levels.

Brother, ive been my own guinea pig since the 90s, and HAVE done blind tests. I brew my own, and have tried every oil under the sun. Why would i take cypionate when ive tried over and over again over the last 2 decades?? it just doesnt work for some people. Im not the only one. I have nothing to prove to you or anybody on here. Im telling you what works for ME, and MY observations manipulating MY hormones for 2 decades. Thats called experience my young lads. You can disagree with MY protocol all you want because it doesnt work for YOU. I dont disagree with YOUR protocol, its just not the correct one for ME. Do you understand now that this isnt a one size fits all approach?? How do you know the OP wouldnt feel 100 times better if he tried a different protocol with more test and optimized thyroid?? You dont. You assume, and ya know what they say about that, right??

I think people 'side effects' are just people being fearful hypochondriacs. I started my online presence waaaaaaay back in the day on bodybuilding forums. It kinda amuses me how THIS site everybody complains of such petty little side effects. how come nobody complains about side effects on bodybuilding boards blasting thousands upon thousands milligrams of testosterone?? Know why?? men need more testosterone than a man in a white coat and insurance companies will tell you. Take your health into your own hands and dose your testosterone till you feel better. Theres two types of men in this world. Ones that are self sufficient and do what they want, and ones that do what they are told. Doctors dont get paid when they dont have sick patients.

For ME, more than what the OP is taking IS necessary. NOT for athleticism, for libido and properly functioning penis. i built my frame with anabolics looong ago. i cant help having an athletic body at this point, so maybe men like me NEED more testosterone from past hormone and AI exposure to function. hell, i need exogenous estrogen now too. I WISH i could get away with dosing at much lower doses. i just cant function when ive tried countless times. Ive dosed all the way down 10mg a day, on cypionate AND enanthate, and sustanon, and prop, in cotton seed oil, grape seed oil, safflower oil, sesame oil, mct oil, EO, and id rather be dead. (blind test) lol So your FIRMLY opposing what works for other men is a pretty naive way of approaching a customized TRT protocol for them, so who is giving bad advice here? Id feel like garbage if i listened to YOU. As we ALL know this is not a one size fits all treatment.

everybody needs to understand the INSURANCE companies dictate the testosterone ranges they feel appropriate. Notice they keep getting lower and lower?? nobody knows what a healthy mans testosterone levels were before all these chemicals were invented. men no longer produce testosterone the way they once did because of all the endocrine disrupting chemicals in our day to day life. Insurance lower ranges so they dont have to pay for treatment. Blue cross blue shield determines whats 'physiological'. low testosterone levels make men complacent and fearful, which is all i read on here. mens fear of 'side effects' and taking a doctors orders as holy writ.

The only advice i have for any man on here... take your health into your own hands and make YOURSELF feel better, and dont listen to anybody else until you try it for yourself. Just like anything in life. nobodys EVER died from doubling the testosterone dose a DOCTOR gives them for 8 weeks to try a new protocol. I feel like a million dollars on my protocol that a doctor would not even want to treat the same way i do. to each their own my brothers. good luck

Your first three paragraphs are reasonable. You lost my trust after that.

 

[Coconutz]

Haha if I had you in person I would buy you the beverage of your choice Big @Coconutz . You are never dull. Peace Brother.

See @Nelson Vergel ...Big @Coconutz and readalot can get along.

Yeah we don't have any reasonable TT measurement before about 1968. We will never know.

Like i said... no need to repeat what i just wrote. I dont drink. Did you just tag the owner of this site??? like a third grader tattle tailing ?? you and i will never get along from the first thread we encountered each other. Where you got jumped on me for NOT MASTERBATING. lmfao this sites a joke. All the betas gotta nip at the alphas toes. because thats all they can reach. I know why some of yall cant handle high test. yall have been type B personalities from birth and literally cannot function with high teststerone. What all you pussies consider anxiety, is just hi octane fuel running thru your 4 cylinders, not knowing what to do with your new found energy. i didnt want to resort to saying this. but its true.