Checked my BP today. 148/95 I’m getting a lot of headaches lately. I’m currently on 20mg test cyp EOD. Haven’t checked HCT in 2 months. I suspect it’s what’s causing the elevated pressure. I won’t have medical insurance until July 1. Wondering if I should wait and then do labs then or just drop a pint tomorrow. Only issue with that is my ferritin was 45 last labs 2 months ago. That time was on 16mg test cyp. Doc raised me to 20mg Cyp EOD so I’m sure the ferritin will be low now with higher T. This is a vicious cycle.
TRT High blood pressure?
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Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
First, always do multiple checks on both arms/wrists. Start with making sure you're getting plenty of potassium and not over-restricting Salt which, contrary to popular belief, can actually raise BP in some people. Make sure you are well-hydrated. Others will have to chime in on HCT as I don't' worry about Ferritin ( a poor marker of Iron status BTW) personally, and just donate around 3 times per year. I'm much more worried about Iron overload since I went many years without donating much at all.
What are your Ferritin levels may I ask?
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
I don't know. It's been years since I checked it. Once when I was donating blood more it got down to 10 with no symptoms and then it was back up around 30-40 when I checked again. It's my understanding that TIBC is a much better measure of iron status (my Total Iron Binding Capacity (TIBC) was mid-range when I checked it), but most importantly, when I became aware of the danger of Iron overload, that became my primary concern. I eat enough red meat and liver that I should have plenty of iron, but I went many years (decades) only donating rarely and that probably allowed iron to build up, so my concern is gradually getting it out of my organs, bones and wherever else it's not supposed to be. There's also a school of thought that copper is important for Iron metabolism, so I occasionally supplement copper.
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
ARB's like lorsartan or telmisartan are TRT's best friends:
Obviously everyone is different and often times react differently to TRT. So, wondering:
What is your typical BP? As, mine would be pretty normal @ 140/90 and was about that 30yrs ago. (135/90)
BP readings can only be accurately determined by:
Physicians office, Manually. -Avoid automated/digital devices. (especially self check in public places)
No caffeine within a few hrs. (preferably not at all that day.)
No workouts prior to testing.
Emptying your bladder right before hitting the exam room.
Sitting Quietly and STILL for at least 5 min's. (NO TALIKNG! not even to the DA nurses asking a ton of stupid questions)
Sit in a chair, back supported, arm supported on armrest, feet on the floor, legs not crossed. (NOT on an exam table with feet dangling!)
Use of proper Cuff size.
Systolic BP can literally be raised 20+ by violating any of these.
Crashing Ferritin IS a concern. But, 45 while on TRT isn't a terrible #. (I've had to donate @ <20!!) Crashed Ferritin feels about like being Hypogonadal and not being on TRT at all.
If you are diligent, Fred Vorck has an Iron Blast protocol that will bump your post donation ferritin, without blowing up your Hct or Hb. It worked for me.
Good Luck!
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While standard iron tests show how much iron is currently circulating in your bloodstream, a ferritin test measures your actual stored reserves.
Low ferritin levels are often the very first indicator that your iron reserves are running low, long before full-blown iron deficiency anemia develops.
Depleted ferritin can cause profound fatigue, brain fog, restless leg syndrome, and poor sleep quality—even if your blood hemoglobin levels appear "normal". I've been there/done that! and it can be Hell!
Personally, I'd be by far more interested in my Ferritin #'s than my Iron. (although, I def do both) The Ferritin Test is the most critical and reliable single marker for evaluating your iron status. It is one of the primary blood tests used to help screen for and monitor iron overload conditions, such as hereditary hemochromatosis.
If your body is functioning properly, Hepcidin will guard against "Iron overload." There is a danger of IO. But, not for healthy individuals without hereditary hemochromatosis.
I've even had NON-Anemic Iron Deficiency and this cannot be detected without proper Ferritin and Iron testing.
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
I'm going to do a longer post on this topic in the next week or so, but I don't think this is correct, even though it is what mainstream medicine parrots. For example, if I donate blood and my ferritin goes down, Iron that has been harmfully stored in organs like the heart where it does a lot of damage takes longer to be mobilized so it is still there causing trouble even though Ferritin went down. Further, if someone is low on copper as many people are, the iron will not be properly mobilized and released from the organs, and further fatigue in general can result which can be addressed by copper to properly utilize the iron, rather than adding iron. But there are other people who have looked at this in much greater detail than I have who I will reference in another post.
Ok, ya I'd love to read it.
I'm curious how a "healthy individual" with properly functioning Hepcidin could or would store any "excess" iron (Iron Overload) in the Liver, Heart and Pancreas, without blood transfusions or Hvy iron supplementation.
I'm def not an expert on this!! I only know what I learned (very little) going to an oncologist and concluding that I did not have Hereditary Hemochromatosis and then studying the topic some and trying to understand a little more.
Thx!
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
Ok, it will take me a few days. Your comments reminded me of some things I need to add to it.
The quick answer re: Hepcidin is that once the body's healthy depots for Iron storage (e.g. ferritin and the liver) are essentially full the body has no way to get rid of the incoming iron (other than periodic blood donation) and as a defense mechanism starts putting in unhealthy places like other organs and tissues. I think of it a slow-onset hemochromatosis. IIRC correctly the only way to really measure it is via biopsy or autopsy, but it can be inferred from other markers. Hepcidin as I understand it regulates iron under conditions where the total iron in the body is not in excess, however the body has no way other that forcing iron into other tissues to deal with excess iron.
I'm not an expert either, but this was big topic of discussion back around 2016-18, especially in the context of the damage that the unnatural excess from iron-fortified foods appears to have done, so I'm dredging it out of my memory and re-examining. The bottom line is that any conversation about Iron needs to at least acknowledge the concept and address the role that copper or lack thereof plays in Iron metabolism. A lot of people with "low iron" symptoms are likely low in copper which is essential for properly mobilizing iron. It's certainly possible to have low iron as measured by Ferritin but for most men (not pre-menopausal women) the release of Iron from organs is the healthier way to resolve that issue.
Ok, interesting.
My understanding is that hepcidin IS the body's master iron regulator. It is fully responsible for Blocking any/all iron that is not needed. It is the gate keeper for ingested iron. When the body (organs) are Full (at capacity) Hepcidin shuts off absorption, by blocking absorption in the intestines.
Then, the "unneeded" iron is passed through the bowels with feces and excreted in the stool. So, unless I'm not understanding something, the "Healthy individual" (with no underlying conditions) cannot possibly OD on dietary iron. (you can eat all the red meat you want and Hepcidin will handle it)
There are a few examples where one is not "Healthy" to begin with and have Hepcidin lowering conditions; i.e. Hereditary Hemochromatosis and that can def creates harmful Iron Overload in the Heart, Liver and Pancreas. Hepatitis C, and Type 2 Diabetes can also lower Hepcidin, to name a few.
So, my understanding is, if one does not have a Hepcidin Lowering disease present, they would not Store any "excess" iron, no matter how much they ate in a day or over months. With at least one caveat; Liver! Which in excess can also cause Vit A toxicity in the general public and Liver is very dangerous for anyone with Hemochromatosis due to Iron overload.
This is what I "think I know". Maybe one of these Moderators can chime in and straighten us both out!! Lol!
I'd rather be wrong, and find out NOW!! Than, continue on ignorantly into the future
Systemlord
Member
When I was on 20 mg every other day, my ferritin was 24 and I had blood pressure spikes as well as heart rate spikes. Sometimes the delivery method and half-life are the problem and not so much the ferritin. These blood pressure and heart rate symptoms on an everyday injection protocol with a 30 mg decrease in dose are significantly worse.
With the same ferritin level on oral testosterone with a very short half-life, blood pressure is perfectly controlled with a significant increase in dose and higher testosterone levels.
With the same ferritin level on oral testosterone with a very short half-life, blood pressure is perfectly controlled with a significant increase in dose and higher testosterone levels.
Jim Marlowe
Member
Regular phlebotomy is one of the best ways to increase longevity in men and postmenopausal women. Why? Because of iron overload. Iron is unnecessarily added to food. Black olives, for example. So many people on here are worried about low iron. Crazy. All things equal low ferritin is better than high ferritin. The late Eugene Weinberg did some of the best reviews on iron overload. Read anything he's published. Iron out-of-balance: a risk factor for acute and chronic diseases - PubMed
Thx Jim, I appreciate the info and link. I'll have to read up on that for sure.
Cause as I've stated above, in short; "My understanding is that hepcidin IS the body's master iron regulator. It is fully responsible for Blocking any/all iron that is not needed. It is the gate keeper for ingested iron. When the body (organs) are Full (at capacity) Hepcidin shuts off absorption, by blocking absorption in the intestines.
Then, the "unneeded" iron is passed through the bowels with feces and excreted in the stool. So, unless I'm not understanding something, the "Healthy individual" (with no underlying conditions) cannot possibly OD on dietary iron."
So, yes I'd absolutely like to learn (for my own health) how the body can develop IO, void of an underlying condition as noted in my above comment. Especially since Maintaining good Iron #'s is always a challenge with TRT and the ridic Labcorp and Quest Hct and HB limits, these idiot Dr's and Clinics hold to.
Even though pseudo science sold us all on Low salt in the 90's, cardio at all costs, not to mention, the phony Vax, (to name a few) I'm fairly cautious. But, I still try to stay open to new data and findings.
...Never leave home without your notebook!
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
Regarding Hepcidin-based regulation, from what I understand, it is an incomplete blockade with further variation by individual and Iron type. Here is the best quote on the topic I found after a quick search:
The body regulates iron absorption in the gut based on current needs. However, this regulatory system is easily overwhelmed by high, sustained intakes from fortified foods and supplements. When intake persistently exceeds demand, the body keeps absorbing the mineral. [1, 2, 3]
This is also shown by the Hepcidin’s greater (almost double) ability to block non-heme iron vs. heme iron. (This can create an issue for pre-menopausal female vegans.)
More generally, the body appears to be optimized for what we would consider low-to-moderate iron intake, not the much higher intakes that modern food supply allows and, in the case of fortification, essentially mandates for many people. Historically, the best sources of iron would have been much less available than they are today.
Note: AI produces a lot of contradictory and confusing responses to iron-related topics which appears to be due to 1) lack of general awareness of the highly toxic nature of excess iron, and 2) over-reliance on ferritin as an indicator of total-body iron status.
Stepping back, as @Jim marlow alludes to, the reason I raise this point every time the topic of Iron comes up is because most people seem to wildly over-focus on a specific ferritin number rather than looking at the whole Iron/copper/ferritin/ceruloplasmin topic in general and with recognition of the serious consequences of excess. If an adult male thinks they have low total body Iron and they haven’t been donating blood frequently or running triathalons, the first question needs to be, “where did the iron go and how is that possible” since the iron in the hamburger you ate when you were ten years old is still somewhere in your body. If low ferritin is raised to "normal" from Iron that is released from organs where it shouldn’t be, then the low ferritin (temporarily) is a very good thing if there are no negative symptoms, although there is a lot more going on so that is an oversimplification to make the point that jumping to Iron supplementation should be viewed with great suspicion and IMO as an absolute last resort after copper, food, adjusted TRT dose and time have all been allowed to function.
More generally, as I’ve reported in other threads, my HCT and (back when I measured it) ferritin have jumped around quite a bit without any symptoms or reason I can identify for the change, so I try to optimize things as best I can and not obsess over a single reading with hopefully a gradually reduction in any Iron overload I build up over decades of not donating blood as my highest priority.
Def an interesting take. Thank you both for your investment of time on my behalf. Greatly appreciated
But, in my case, I def have "Negative Symptoms" when my Ferritin is Low or crashed! Otherwise, I wouldn't even care about a single "snap shot" Lab profile. But, I Powerlift and "Typically" perform @ a very high level physically and low Ferritin absolutely taps me out! -I can't even get out of my own way! Seriously, I could only mow for 15min's and then rest for 20-30! While the old man across the street, with a bad leg mowed his entire front AND backyard in one pop! Couldn't even get through an 8hr day of const either. This went on for months, the first time I crashed it via multiple donations!!
I'm going to commit some extra time to looking into you and Jim's view points. I will see if I can find enough conclusive evidence to force me to re-think this topic.
But, looking in from the outside, I do a lot of studying on health and performance based subjects (and have for decades) and I haven't ever read anything that set off a warning flare regarding IO for the average, Healthy person and much less athlete. -usually quite the opposite.
Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I'd think this topic would be on full display across the board for all age groups and especially sport related sites, videos and Social Media.
Thx again!
Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
Everyone is different, so I am not suggesting a blanket approach, I just think there needs to be balance and recognition that Iron is particularly high-risk over the long term. Someone could certainly become low on Iron if they donated frequently for an extended time, however we've had people here who thought they were low on Iron after one blood draw.Def an interesting take. Thank you both for your investment of time on my behalf. Greatly appreciated
But, in my case, I def have "Negative Symptoms" when my Ferritin is Low or crashed! Otherwise, I wouldn't even care about a single "snap shot" Lab profile. But, I Powerlift and "Typically" perform @ a very high level physically and low Ferritin absolutely taps me out! -I can't even get out of my own way! Seriously, I could only mow for 15min's and then rest for 20-30! While the old man across the street, with a bad leg mowed his entire front AND backyard in one pop! Couldn't even get through an 8hr day of const either. This went on for months, the first time I crashed it via multiple donations!!
I'm going to commit some extra time to looking into you and Jim's view points. I will see if I can find enough conclusive evidence to force me to re-think this topic.
But, looking in from the outside, I do a lot of studying on health and performance based subjects (and have for decades) and I haven't ever read anything that set off a warning flare regarding IO for the average, Healthy person and much less athlete. -usually quite the opposite.
Maybe it's just my ignorance, but I'd think this topic would be on full display across the board for all age groups and especially sport related sites, videos and Social Media.
Thx again!
I'm curious if you tried supplementing a moderate amount of copper before you tried Iron.
Iron was a big topic about 10 years ago and one of the books that resulted form it was Dumping Iron by Dennis Mangan. The summary alone is worth reading IMO. He's a little too ferritin-focused for my taste but still has a lot of great info and references.
There was also a multi-year series of blog posts from someone who did a lot of analysis on the declines in health in populations right after Iron supplementation was started, but I can'[t seem to find it now. Perhaps @Jim Marlowe knows who that was.
If supplementing Iron produced the endurance benefits that people report from taking compounds that boost EPO, I can understand how it would be a bit addictive but thankfully that hasn't been an issue for me so far, although I have been on a three donations per year schedule, both as a service and for potential anti-aging benefits, as well as HCT control.
And here is a video and some text:
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Jim Marlowe
Member
I do not know who has written blog posts. Here is one of Eugene Weinberg's articles. https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2010/mt/c0mt00023j
Thank you. I have had my share of iron related issues. So, who knows, I "could have" hidden IO. ??
It took the Medical community about 30yrs to even begin to grasp and begin to refute the BS Low Salt theory...
Fluoride is still alive and well, even though it is a hazardous waste product from processing aluminum and very similar to the active ingredient of Prozac along with a whole host of other serious health hazards... ( a VERY interesting study. Goes back to WWll, Hitler and the post war, NASA era...)
So, I do not doubt the possibility of hidden IO or the possibility of the findings being real.
But, the questions that immediately pop into my head are;
1. Why would you "assume" that you personally, have excess iron built up in your organs? Is this an assumption based on the data, or on personal diagnostics? (or both?)
2. How do you "manage" your condition? What are the parameters of your dietary iron intake?
Aside from having Hemochromatosis, (I don't) having a history of abusing iron supp's, (I haven't) I'm not seeing why the general public would be concerned about something (Hidden Iron overload) that I assume cannot be diagnosed or verified? -maybe we all should be concerned! But, "if" it's Hidden, how would we know? How would we positively conclude our measures moving fwd would in fact protect us?
I've seen enough decades come and go to have seen A LOT of standard practices, theories, data and beliefs be completely debunked over the years. This for me, has created good common sense, discernment and a fair measure of caution. I did not partake in the phony Jab because of these life experiences. Like the phony Jab, maybe the Medical community is pushing their own agenda and bringing attention to Hidden IO isn't part of that agenda? IDK... Time will tell.
So, what may appear as "skepticism" on my part, is simply me doing my due diligence and trying to reckon the possibilities.
I'll confidently put it this way; If this subject showed up on ABC, I'd dismiss it in a heartbeat! Lol!! At least until, the rest of the civilized world got up to speed!
Thx again for all your efforts!
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Guided_by_Voices
Well-Known Member
I think "assume" may be slightly too definitive. My logic is that I went 60 years with only occasional blood donations once every few years or so when a blood drive was close to my work (in retrospect I should have donated just to help people) so it's hard to imagine how I could not have accumulated more iron than I needed and hence have that iron stored where it causes harm. Once I learned how toxic Iron is in places beyond where it is needed I switched to donating 3 times per year in the hope that it would keep me in a slight Iron deficit such that I would tend toward puling Iron out of organs to replace the iron I lose through the blood donation. I have also been trying to eat more liver so that is another reason to be consistent with the donations. The measurement of Iron overload is AFIAK indirect and imprecise so I haven't stressed over trying to measure it and I don't worry about ferritin other than preferring it to be on the low side. Ferritin standards that are way too high with no consideration of Iron Overload is a big part of how IO became a big risk. I try to make all decisions mased on risk vs reward/cost vs benefit and to me, the risk of IO due to the all the nasty issues it causes (which all add up to very unhealthy aging) is worth making avoiding it by far my top priority on the Iron topic. If I lose a little endurance capacity that is a good trade-off from what I know of IO.
Less related to Iron, there is some indication from the aging studies in mice that look at exchanging young and old blood that there may be other anti-aging benefits from blood donation, so that is a factor as well.
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