Testosterone dimers

[granger]

it always was marketing. bit of semantics forsure, education being key regardless of terms used.

here is an article about test dimmers and varying effects on DNA... wish I would of saved the other article about test dimmers. so of course this leads to a larger question of how much of what dimmer in what products and how potentially change effects... IF my small understanding is correct.

Effect of testosterone and its aliphatic and aromatic dimers on DNA morphology

Conjugation of DNA with testosterone and it aliphatic dimer (alip) and aromatic dimer (arom) was investigated in aqueous solution at pH 7.4. Multiple …

www.sciencedirect.com

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja01178a030

Transporting testosterone and its dimers by serum proteins

A substantial part of steroids is bound to serum proteins in vivo. We report the association of testosterone and it aliphatic dimer (alip) and aromati…

www.sciencedirect.com

certainly one would think by varying affinities of dimmers of test to globulin/blood proteins would have different side effects or work utilized slightly differently.. perhaps a bit in the weeds for most however I would LOVE to understand this more. may offer some reasons for commonly noted differences in test esters/ brands etc. just important to keep open minded when hear people say test is test.... well sort of, but sort of not aswell particularly when presumably differing dimmer ratio affect not just phenotype but genotypic expressions.

thats right folks TRT is actually gene therapy and un natural ratios of test dimmers cause different changes to RNA and DNA morphology(ie within DNA itself) and expression of said genes. EEEK lol... maybe MPMD can talk to his DR friends and get it all explained. likely more we don't know than actually do...

 

[Cataceous]

...
here is an article about test [dimers] and varying effects on DNA...
...larger question of how much of what dimmer in what products and how potentially change effects... IF my small understanding is correct....

Given the quantum leap I'm suspecting not, but you can show otherwise by filling in the background:

• Explain what a testosterone dimer is. Assume we don't know.
• Do they occur in nature and if so are levels sufficient to have biological significance? References?
• Is there evidence that dimers exist in testosterone products in quantity? Wouldn't they be considered contaminants?

 

[granger]

yes its in plenty of literature, including one I posted. reading it all is one story, than comprehension is yet another lol...

dimmers are simply same hormone in this case folded / reacted / polymerized with each other not reacted in an acid base type of way. if that makes sense.. aliphatic testosterone being 1 dimmer type, aromatic another form it would seem.

it would appear have differing types of dimmer some man made and some natural. one old paper talked about "new"(at the time) esters and dimmer trying to Dig that up but not seeing it atm..

this one is talking about in vivo/endogenous ie natural. and varying forms, varying affinity to proteins one would assume would have varying effects as we know about "bound" test and free test in trt. I think they wanted to encapsulate test with proteins to make it more or less effective for varying reasons... Transporting testosterone and its dimers by serum proteins

again, I am not an expert and I am just as curious as you about test dimmers and how different ratios may cause differing effects.. as paper describes different dimmers reacting with DNA and RNA differently presumably having slightly different effects along with how they bind to blood albumin etc. perhaps insignificant, and more for cancer research and drug development. is there a endocrinologist in the house?? lol

rather academic pursuit but I find it interesting, and perhaps in the future may help us understand oddities and quarks of different test product. or may have very little to do with anything, but we can learn together...

 

[Cataceous]

...
this one is talking about in vivo/endogenous ie natural. ... Transporting testosterone and its dimers by serum proteins
...

Where? This could be a semi-interesting tangent, but examining irrelevant links takes the fun out of it. Brandolini's law at work? Still wondering:

• Do testosterone dimers occur in nature and if so are levels sufficient to have biological significance?
• Is there evidence that dimers exist in testosterone products in quantity? Wouldn't they be considered contaminants?

As to what a testosterone dimer is, my layman's interpretation is that it is two testosterone molecules bonded together in various possible ways. The linked research suggests biological activity of this complex, but these dimers appear to have been synthesized.

 

[granger]

- yes test dimmer are natural. as I stated the one paper speaks about endogenous/in vivo ie natural produced IN the animal.. lol 3rd time saying this but I get ranty.. yes they will have differing effects as get bound differently ie more likely to be bound by albumin at differing rates which of course changes ability to "go to work".. I think of it like free or bound test...in the study I think they are trying to figure out ways to prevent test from growing cancers. there are man made dimmers aswell and were studied for mutagenic qualities, however other papers discuss how most/all dimmers affect DNA RNA differently and change morphology of the actual strands, but perhaps not enough to be mutagenic.. again, im not an expert im learning about this aswell just by readings papers, so feel free to try and dig stuff up. varying dimmers are more or less androgenic, IIRC the aromatic dimmer being more than aliphatic. that is to say again, yes varying pharmacodynamics.

- ill try later to see if I can dig up the paper about "new esters" at the time and dimmers. dont think it talked about EXACT differences in effects rather studies of purely structure and metabolism/half lives. may have other insights I dont know was old school type writer written and those old school academics tended to really blabber on VS today most keep things easier to read/to the point.

-because they are just part of what test is no it wouldn't be considered contamination (unless perhaps some mutagenic forms happen to be made), although certainly may be something to varying precursors, purification and ester type that one can likely assume at least SOME variance in dimmer ratios/levels.. probably safe to assume wouldn't mirror exactly natural because of processing/ manufacturing. How much of an effect may be negligible depending on which your comparing but may be why some esters seem to act different even when dosed in such a way the amount of exogenous test levels is nearly identical or maybe simply the ester itself, never know, but interesting...

-the testing is of course far more time consuming never mind purification of varying dimmers than testing of them in vivo vs just on cells. so unlikely to find much particularly when comes to a brand vs brand or ester vs ester type with dose dependant charts.

I find interesting when I find out about such things as potentially may offer answers to why some folks get varying effects from different brands for example. possibly placebo forsure, but IMO there is often something to it.. like if someone preferred a different brand of clomid, but Dr says they are all the same dose, ur crazy... BUT when look into it clomid isn't one singular thing and may have differing ratios of enclomophene for example.. not saying ive heard anyone say prefer 1 clomid over another but certainly possible esp when definition of ratios of what's in climid isn't a strict thing from my understanding. ANYHOO, I think u get my point.

sorry I dont have all the answers! but would love a DR to explain it and encourage others to see what they can dig up... I doubt we would get any definite answers when it comes to specific products, however may get some workable theories! particularly if can nail down if certain product tends to have more of the dimmer that has stronger effect on DNA(of course assuming its a bad thing), or may offer better symptom relief, or anabolic etc etc.

would also be cool if could get testing done to compare a few commercial products, just to see if much of any difference.

 

[bixt]

may offer answers to why some folks get varying effects from different brands for example

The only anecdotes on this topic I have read (reddit, forums) for various medicines concern slow release generic versions of drugs. Prominent examples I have read about recently are extended release (XR, XRT, SR) generic concerta and bupropion.

But those perceived significantly differing effects are probably due to the delivery mechanisms not having an identical release curve compared to the original and not the drug itself. For example a certain generic concerta is known to cause insomnia, probably because of an extra delayed release vs the original.

I have not read the same stories of differing experiences regarding regular (immediate release) versions of these same drugs. There are tons of red tape and regulations a manufacturer has to follow in order to get their generic approved with regards to the testing of purity of the underlying drug.

With regards to testosterone the differences in carrier oil and other solvents would also similarly contribute to perceived differences in brands (due to changes in release time from the depot) and not so much the dimer which is a non issue.

 

[Cataceous]

- yes test dimmer are natural. as I stated the one paper speaks about endogenous/in vivo ie natural produced IN the animal..

Provide the exact quotes. While it's true that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the dearth of publications on this subject would be virtually impossible if dimers had anywhere near the significance you're suggesting. My impression is that testosterone dimers are simply a scientific curiosity at the moment.

 

[granger]

in this one they acquired the separate dimmers just to study how they differ, but are part of normal/natural test from what I gather. I missed the part it says it obtained separate dimmers from sigma and were talking about generally how endogenous test reacts differently to blood proteins in vivo..

"HSA forms more stable complexes than BSA. The binding affinity of steroid–protein adducts is testosterone > dimer-aromatic > dimer-aliphatic"
"Due to a major biological importance of steroid–protein interaction, it was of interest to examine the associations of testosterone and two of its dimers with serum albumins"
"his study was undertaken to verify the potential transportation of testosterone and its dimers by serum proteins. The significance of this study resides in the likely development of testosterone delivery system for the treatment of androgen deficiency in men"

found the old article about dimmers and esters! they use aromatic and aliphatic to refer to the dimmers and dont call them dimmers. interesting it makes note of certain esters being more aliphatic, from what I gather.
"lower aliphatic esters are most effective.... the effect are more pronounced but intensity decrease rapidly"... im just reading it now but im sure this will help answer more questions esp if look into its citations. unfortunate need a subscription in order to read full article, and of course pretty intense chemistry talk.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ja01178a030

at any rate, I think for a definite answer would need to speak with someone far more knowledgable. and agree prob more academic than practical, and wish we had a dr here who could break this down. but MAY offer a little insight in practical terms for some people, I just find it interesting

@bixt yes some meds are 1 singular compound so yes differing delivery methods would of course make a noticeable change and unlikely the 5% dosage difference from a different brand would be noticeable however differing XR methods would. I was talking about drugs that are not one singular compound like HCG or clomid... and hence more than possible notable difference. I dont know clomid for example has defined strict ratios of enclomophene etc. HCG of course uses IU vs mg as measure effectiveness vs mg dosage per say, thats to say one hcg mg may equal higher iu than 1mg of a different hcg brand thats recombinant for example. again, I think my point was that MANY drugs are not 1 singular thing. even vitamins b12 isn't just 1 thing neither is vitamin D. IIRC even differing vitamin C isomers work differently by the body..

 

[Cataceous]

in this one they acquired the separate dimmers just to study how they differ, but are part of normal/natural test from what I gather. ....

[regurgitation of irrelevant information]

With fatigue setting in, I must refrain from replying until you're able to post something tangible and coherent to buttress your speculation.

 

[granger]

sorry your unable to understand... just read the papers and do some research if interested...

also of interest testosterone WAY back when was IU but than 50s or around there they began using mass of actual test per ester vs amount of growth it caused in rats organs...