Supplements/recommendations for aiding in restoring cartilage to the knee. Only 39 years old and is considered level 3-4 arthritic

[Guided_by_Voices]

Thinking about this some more, it might also make sense to inject BPC-157 and glycine along with the GH into the joint (assuming there is a way to brew injectable glycine.) That would create a brief spike in both the things that trigger healing also the raw materials for some of the healing.

 

[testiculus]

I think it is the increase in IGF-1 levels. We had done some observational experiments quite a while back with treating injuries with IGF-1 etc. We did micro-dosing around the injury and got good results. This hits as many receptor sites as possible but in the end goes systemic.

Systemic Absorption and Side Effects of Locally Injected Glucocorticoids - PubMed

Local glucocorticoid injections are often used to treat joint, soft tissue, or spinal pain, but the systemic side effects associated with these injections are poorly understood and not well recognized. There are significant known risks to systemic administration of glucocorticoids. However...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

However, it is clear that both intra-articular and epidural injections can have systemic effects for weeks and that complications may be associated with their use....

It would be interesting to test serum GH levels 2 hours post injection with intra-articular vs. subQ. If similar, then I'm not sure you're really achieving meaningfully higher GH levels in the joint capsule. Theoretically an IM injection into the muscle nearest the joint capsule could produce high levels in the joint capsule and adjacent bone if there is significant migration. Given that chondrocytes are adhered to the bone, achieving high levels GH in the bone could be important to promoting cartilage regeneration.

For the IGF-1 experiments was this for connective tissue injuries or muscle body tears?

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

It would be interesting to test serum GH levels 2 hours post injection with intra-articular vs. subQ. If similar, then I'm not sure you're really achieving meaningfully higher GH levels in the joint capsule. Theoretically an IM injection into the muscle nearest the joint capsule could produce high levels in the joint capsule and adjacent bone if there is significant migration. Given that chondrocytes are adhered to the bone, achieving high levels GH in the bone could be important to promoting cartilage regeneration.

For the IGF-1 experiments was this for connective tissue injuries or muscle body tears?

Why all the resistance here to Intra Articular injections? For all we know, the benefit of a localized spike could happen in seconds, and as @BigTex is showing, the injections are quite doable. If systemic injections fixed severe joint problems in a meaningful percentage of cases, we would likely already know that. Mainstream medicine is well-known to penalize doctors for avoiding surgeries so if a breakthrough exists it will have to be crowd-sourced, as we are witnessing here.

Also, I don't follow your logic. You would have to test levels in the joint after both an IA injection and a systemic injection, so just showing that the GH seeped out of the capsule says nothing about what the levels inside the capsule would be after a systemic injection.

 

[BigTex]

It would be interesting to test serum GH levels 2 hours post injection with intra-articular vs. subQ. If similar, then I'm not sure you're really achieving meaningfully higher GH levels in the joint capsule. Theoretically an IM injection into the muscle nearest the joint capsule could produce high levels in the joint capsule and adjacent bone if there is significant migration. Given that chondrocytes are adhered to the bone, achieving high levels GH in the bone could be important to promoting cartilage regeneration.

For the IGF-1 experiments was this for connective tissue injuries or muscle body tears?

It might be interesting. Not sure my insurance company will pay the expense. My purpose of doing this was to duplicate the two scientific papers that have been published and see if I get the same results. I have had to pay out of pocket around $500 for 3 kits of hGH, 2 kits of TB 500 and 2 kits of BPC 157. If this works as they report the money was well spent. I am honestly tired of living with all this pain. Might be something to do if maintenance is needed in the future.

The IGF-1 Lr3 experiments combines with PEG MGF were done to help speed up healing after I detached all three vasti and tore the patella. I was released back to the gym after 5 weeks.

 

[BigTex]

Why all the resistance here to Intra Articular injections? For all we know, the benefit of a localized spike could happen in seconds, and as @BigTex is showing, the injections are quite doable. If systemic injections fixed severe joint problems in a meaningful percentage of cases, we would likely already know that. Mainstream medicine is well-known to penalize doctors for avoiding surgeries so if a breakthrough exists it will have to be crowd-sourced, as we are witnessing here.

Also, I don't follow your logic. You would have to test levels in the joint after both an IA injection and a systemic injection, so just showing that the GH seeped out of the capsule says nothing about what the levels inside the capsule would be after a systemic injection.

@Guided_by_Voices I think there are probably a lot of hope this works. Understandably, most balk at the idea of doing IA injections. My doctor even admitted he could not do this to himself. But then I still remember my 1st IM injection. Scared the crap out of me to have to do this. After the 1st time it was easy. I have injected cortisone in my foot to relieve plantar fasciitis which at the time was a big deal. When I had knee surgery I was micro-dosing right into the surgically repaired area. After a while one injection is just the same as IM, IA, Sub-q. Just an injection. With the use of the Ethyl chloride you can't even feel pain. So I get it, most would love to avoid having to do this.

I suspect sub-q will not be as effective. If it was, this problem might not even exist with me because I have been on hGH or peptides since maybe 2005. I have also used quite a lot of IGF-1Lr3 and BPC-157. This is my 1st shot at using large doses of TB500 though.

I was due to have another long acting cortisone injection in my shoulder at the end of July. Because of the big reduction in pain I have not made an appointment. I do want my doctor to do ex-rays of the shoulder and knee to see if any changes can be detected. There has to be a reason why the pain has greatly subsided.

Now if this works will our medical system change. Hardly, might cause my doctors to rethink what they are doing and will hopefully give some hope to others with the same problem. Until the FDA is willing to back off hGH we may have to continue to go UG and do it ourselves. At least I can still lift weights. Unlike having to go through a reverse shoulder replacement and not being able to ever lift more than 25 lbs.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

@Guided_by_Voices I think there are probably a lot of hope this works. Understandably, most balk at the idea of doing IA injections. My doctor even admitted he could not do this to himself. But then I still remember my 1st IM injection. Scared the crap out of me to have to do this. After the 1st time it was easy. I have injected cortisone in my foot to relieve plantar fasciitis which at the time was a big deal. When I had knee surgery I was micro-dosing right into the surgically repaired area. After a while one injection is just the same as IM, IA, Sub-q. Just an injection. With the use of the Ethyl chloride you can't even feel pain. So I get it, most would love to avoid having to do this.

I suspect sub-q will not be as effective. If it was, this problem might not even exist with me because I have been on hGH or peptides since maybe 2005. I have also used quite a lot of IGF-1Lr3 and BPC-157. This is my 1st shot at using large doses of TB500 though.

I was due to have another long acting cortisone injection in my shoulder at the end of July. Because of the big reduction in pain I have not made an appointment. I do want my doctor to do ex-rays of the shoulder and knee to see if any changes can be detected. There has to be a reason why the pain has greatly subsided.

Now if this works will our medical system change. Hardly, might cause my doctors to rethink what they are doing and will hopefully give some hope to others with the same problem. Until the FDA is willing to back off hGH we may have to continue to go UG and do it ourselves. At least I can still lift weights. Unlike having to go through a reverse shoulder replacement and not being able to ever lift more than 25 lbs.

I think the potential impact of what you're doing here is immense, beyond just the benefits for you personally. It would be interesting to find out if your case could be written up as a formal Case Study so that it shows up on PubMed. Either way, having a credible, highly publicized instance of improvement in a "hard case" when nothing else worked will likely inspire a lot of other people to try the same thing. I think it's almost a good thing that it has to be done outside of the mainstream since the mainstream has a history of sabotaging things they don't like. Many of the health advances and/or options in the last several decades have come from outside the mainstream (e.g.. low carb, paleo, metabolic/immune approaches to cancer, etc.) so what you're doing could be the start of a new trend in this area.

 

[BigTex]

Thanks @Guided_by_Voices This is the 6th week and I did a hGH injection in the knee. I have minimal pain in the knee. The shoulder is tomorrow. Still have pain but not what it was. I will probably also do another 2mg of TB500 with the the hGH and BPC 157.

I'll tell you what, if I have to do this the rest of my life to keep out of surgery I am willing to do it. Sad insurance companies are not willing to jump on board. Its certainly less expensive than surgery.

 

[testiculus]

It might be interesting. Not sure my insurance company will pay the expense. My purpose of doing this was to duplicate the two scientific papers that have been published and see if I get the same results. I have had to pay out of pocket around $500 for 3 kits of hGH, 2 kits of TB 500 and 2 kits of BPC 157. If this works as they report the money was well spent. I am honestly tired of living with all this pain. Might be something to do if maintenance is needed in the future.

The IGF-1 Lr3 experiments combines with PEG MGF were done to help speed up healing after I detached all three vasti and tore the patella. I was released back to the gym after 5 weeks.

Understood. Just thinking about how to characterize the difference between IA and subQ GH with some hard data.

5 weeks - that's pretty incredible. You should write a book about how to heal from injuries. It's a shame that our medical system discourages this sort of thing.

I've been thinking about cartilage and how you might promote regeneration. As a low metabolic tissue without vasculature, IA injections might be the way to go to get around the lack of vasculature. For growth (regeneration) to occur, three things must present: favorable anabolic to catabolic balance, sufficient cellular energy, sufficient substrate materials. The GH will shift the anabolic/catabolic balance, but won't do anything for the other two. As a low metabolic tissue just providing fuel (glucose/fatty acids) to cells won't do much. You need to upregulate cellular metabolism in the chondrocytes. The best option I can think of would be cardarine as it acts directly on the mitochondria to enhance fatty acid metabolism. For substrate, you'd need to supply the amino acids necessary for the creation of new cartilage. Glycine was mention previously in the thread, which is a major amino acid in cartilage, however I think supplying all the amino acids used in cartilage could be beneficial. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any animal research testing any of this.

Good luck with your current approach. I agree that staying away from surgeons is always in one's best interest.

 

[LongevityNutritionDoc]

350 mg. Bone Morphogenic Protein and Arthroben by Designs for Health along with 12 mg. of Boron has worked wonders for my patients.

 

[BigTex]

350 mg. Bone Morphogenic Protein and Arthroben by Designs for Health along with 12 mg. of Boron has worked wonders for my patients.

Probably would be very helpful if you posted a few relevant studies to back up your supplements. Collagen is well studied, how about some or the proprietary herbs in your products?

I have been using collagen peptides 10g, for 3 years maybe and no change in the pain. It is helping? x-rays have not shown they are. But I am still using it just in case.

 

[Forty2]

@Guided_by_Voices I think there are probably a lot of hope this works. Understandably, most balk at the idea of doing IA injections. My doctor even admitted he could not do this to himself. But then I still remember my 1st IM injection. Scared the crap out of me to have to do this. After the 1st time it was easy. I have injected cortisone in my foot to relieve plantar fasciitis which at the time was a big deal. When I had knee surgery I was micro-dosing right into the surgically repaired area. After a while one injection is just the same as IM, IA, Sub-q. Just an injection. With the use of the Ethyl chloride you can't even feel pain. So I get it, most would love to avoid having to do this.

I suspect sub-q will not be as effective. If it was, this problem might not even exist with me because I have been on hGH or peptides since maybe 2005. I have also used quite a lot of IGF-1Lr3 and BPC-157. This is my 1st shot at using large doses of TB500 though.

I was due to have another long acting cortisone injection in my shoulder at the end of July. Because of the big reduction in pain I have not made an appointment. I do want my doctor to do ex-rays of the shoulder and knee to see if any changes can be detected. There has to be a reason why the pain has greatly subsided.

Now if this works will our medical system change. Hardly, might cause my doctors to rethink what they are doing and will hopefully give some hope to others with the same problem. Until the FDA is willing to back off hGH we may have to continue to go UG and do it ourselves. At least I can still lift weights. Unlike having to go through a reverse shoulder replacement and not being able to ever lift more than 25 lbs.

Have you ever taken cipro?

 

[Forty2]

yea def try to avoid surgery unless you you cannot stand it and wait 6 more months. know so many guys who saw the awesome young and very rich sports dr who loved giving surgery to anyone he could.. they thought because dr said lets do it it meant it would help... lol more so they make the big bucks in the OR.. and that bit sore shoulder they wish to have back as spent years and years recovering from surgery to get near the old normal pain/movement wise..

I would like to make a note about BPC and TB peptides... just so folks are aware. yes BPC will help pain, however its mechanism of action isn't what you may assume... that is to say, the "healing" isn't healing rather feeling better (which is great), BPC acts on the brain like anti depressants also BPC has a similar side effect profile..flat mood, stimulants work less etc... but also "healing" of broken bones in animals and tendon bone healing is also found in animals(like BPC) with prozac... so the folks who studied the peptides mirrored studies already done by other antidepressants that had shown healing in animals.. as it turns out the "healing" in animals was because under less stress/pain and they moved around less as less social stress... antidepressants are also Rx for pain... something to keep in mind, may not "heal" like u think just feel better. also it seems people who have history of anxiety or depression tend to be the ones who felt BPC "healed" there torn tendon in a week(which of course is not possible), feeling less pain in a day or 2 is though..

TB can increase bodies immune response which sounds great, however if covid taught us anything its that over stimulated immune response with high levels of cytokinins which can cause inflamation over active immune responses. so if take TB def dont take it if recently had covid, may get more antibodies which again is sorta nice but they are also what causes alot of the damage from covid aswell as the vaccine.. that is to say just because a study hasn't looked into long term use or even side effects of whatever peptide doesn't mean they dont exist even if blogs from clinics make it seem otherwise. so proceed with caution with peptides. kind of scares me when people get allergic reaction to TB or thyma 4 and the naturopathy folks say its "detox" and keep using..

EDIT:

im sure other things are happening and perhaps not binary however side effect profile and effect just appear to mirror antidepressants so very closely and of course BPC has been studied for its antidepressant properties. I have little doubt that people get relief and that in and of itself is remarkable never mind if help heal aswell! I just would be wary of long term use. would be interesting if cat or dog saliva holds such healing gastric peptides like BPC...

im sure this bone tendon healing study sounds familiar to the BPC folks

Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor Promotes Bone-Tendon Interface Healing in a Rotator Cuff Tear Rat Model - Tissue Engineering and Regenerative Medicine

Background: Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) is believed to accelerate wound healing, and thus expected to have a positive effect on rotator cuff repair. We hypothesized that SSRI has a positive effect on the healing of the bone-tendon interface (BTI), and improved rotator cuff tear...

link.springer.com

or

Histologic and Biomechanical Evaluation of the Effects of Social Stress and the Antidepressant Fluoxetine on Tendon Healing in Rats

Thieme E-Books & E-Journals

www.thieme-connect.com

antidepressants heal bone fractures.... sound familiar?

Effects of social stress and fluoxetine treatment on fracture healing in a rat femur fracture model

Mental stress and depressive disorders have negative effect on bone biology and increase fracture risk. Fluoxetine is a widely used selective serotoni…

www.sciencedirect.com

antidepressants heal peptic ulcers...

Tricyclic Antidepressant Therapy for Peptic Ulcer Disease

• The role of tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) as agents for treatment of peptic ulcer disease is of growing interest. In both placebo-controlled clinical trials and comparative studies with cimetidine, TCAs have proved effective and safe as ulcerhealing agents. The mechanism of action by which...

jamanetwork.com

what's interesting is that BPC was found to reduce serotonin syndrome... one would think it would just be lowering serotonin or at least stopping its release?? or counteracts the drug given to induce SS... SS btw can be caused by antidepressants. imagine may be why some people get "flat mood" /anhedonia/caffiene or ADHD meds stop working from BPC-157.


make sure u get real stem cells if actually want best chance to work, and not the concentrated blood.

omegas and at least a small dose of quality protein mix and fibre, hemp seeds flax seeds 2 tablespoons a day keeps intestines happy and omegas/protein is wonderful, nails hair eyes skin all get nicer/stronger, have to assume helps internals stay lubricated/less inflamed too. aminos with nutrient dense food/vitamins seems to really have a synergy and guess it has to do with chelation to drive nutrients into your body and help growth and healing.

stay away from iron supplements unless deficient as promotes oxidation/inflammation.

Can TB-500 also cause a flat mood or anhedonia?

 

[BigTex]

Have you ever taken cipro?

Ciprofloxacin?

 

[BigTex]

Can TB-500 also cause a flat mood or anhedonia

Never heard of TB500 causing this side effect. Where did you get that idea? Anhedonia is typically associated with the use of AIs.

TB500 is nothing more than a synthetic version of a naturally occurring peptides in the body called Thymosin beta 4.

Thymosin beta 4 (Tβ4) is a small protein that belongs to a family of thymosin beta proteins. It plays a significant role in various physiological processes, particularly in wound healing and tissue repair. Tβ4 is naturally produced in the body, primarily by the thymus gland, which is involved in the development of the immune system.
Tβ4 has been studied extensively for its regenerative and healing properties. It is believed to be involved in the migration of cells to sites of injury or inflammation, promoting tissue repair and regeneration. This protein has shown potential therapeutic applications in various medical fields, including cardiology, neurology, and sports medicine.

In the context of medicine, Tβ4 has been investigated for its ability to:

1. Promote wound healing: Tβ4 can accelerate the process of wound repair by encouraging cell migration to the site of injury, facilitating tissue regeneration.
2. Reduce inflammation: It has been suggested that Tβ4 may help modulate the body's inflammatory response, which could be beneficial in conditions where excessive inflammation is harmful.
3. Protect the heart: Studies have indicated that Tβ4 may have cardioprotective effects by supporting heart tissue repair after damage.
4. Improve neuroprotection: Some research suggests that Tβ4 might play a role in promoting nerve cell survival and neurological recovery after injuries.

 

[Forty2]

Ciprofloxacin?

Yes

 

[Forty2]

Never heard of TB500 causing this side effect. Where did you get that idea? Anhedonia is typically associated with the use of AIs.

TB500 is nothing more than a synthetic version of a naturally occurring peptides in the body called Thymosin beta 4.

Thymosin beta 4 (Tβ4) is a small protein that belongs to a family of thymosin beta proteins. It plays a significant role in various physiological processes, particularly in wound healing and tissue repair. Tβ4 is naturally produced in the body, primarily by the thymus gland, which is involved in the development of the immune system.
Tβ4 has been studied extensively for its regenerative and healing properties. It is believed to be involved in the migration of cells to sites of injury or inflammation, promoting tissue repair and regeneration. This protein has shown potential therapeutic applications in various medical fields, including cardiology, neurology, and sports medicine.

In the context of medicine, Tβ4 has been investigated for its ability to:

1. Promote wound healing: Tβ4 can accelerate the process of wound repair by encouraging cell migration to the site of injury, facilitating tissue regeneration.
2. Reduce inflammation: It has been suggested that Tβ4 may help modulate the body's inflammatory response, which could be beneficial in conditions where excessive inflammation is harmful.
3. Protect the heart: Studies have indicated that Tβ4 may have cardioprotective effects by supporting heart tissue repair after damage.
4. Improve neuroprotection: Some research suggests that Tβ4 might play a role in promoting nerve cell survival and neurological recovery after injuries.

I've been taking TB500 on its own for only 5 days, but ever since I've been taking it, my mood has been very flat.
BPC-157 is known to negatively affect mood in some people.
I wondered if TB500 had a similar effect.

 

[BigTex]

Never heard of either one of those side effects happening with either product. To add to that there are just no studies done on humans. Does that mean it can't happen? No. If you feel it is affecting you negatively, then stop taking it.

BPC 157 did have some positive effects on stress in rats.

The antidepressant effect of an antiulcer pentadecapeptide BPC 157 in Porsolt's test and chronic unpredictable stress in rats. A comparison with antidepressants - PubMed

Various antidepressants have antiulcer activity. Likewise, the models currently used in ulcers and depression disorders research have a considerable degree of similarity. Therefore, the possibility that depression disorders could be effectively influenced by a primary antiulcer agent with a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

What is BPC 157

Human gastric juice-derived protein: BPC 157​

The human gastric juice-derived protein labelled BPC 157, also known as Bepecin (Cox et al. 2017), PL 14736 and PL10 (Tkalčević et al. 2007) is a stable gastric pentadecapeptide that was first introduced and overviewed in the Journal of Physiology (Paris) by Sikirić et al. (1993). BPC 157 is a 15 amino acid fragment (Gly-Glu-Pro-Pro-Pro-Gly-Lys-Pro-Ala-Asp-Asp-Ala-Gly-Leu-Val) that is often termed as ‘synthetic’; although the compounds are ‘natural’, they are not known to exist in nature and are derived from another protein (Bódis et al. 1997). ​

 

[BigTex]

Yes

I have never taken this particular antibiotic.

 

[mcs]

Several things:

- Review the "fixes for joint issues" thread
- Eliminate from your diet any high-risk foods that could be causing an inflammatory reaction in joints such as wheat and whey
- BPC/TB500/DMSO as discussed elsewhere here
- GH secretagougues
- Be sure your gait/posture is perfect
- Glucosamine/Chondroitin
- Investigate prolotherapy/dry needling
- Have a proper stem cell eval done. Regenexx is a good provider
- Hyaluronic acid injections

There are other things but that is a good place to start.

Out of all the stem cell/PRP providers, Regenexx seems to have done their homework and has the most factual data to back up their claims. The only thing I would say is to make sure and get inflammation under control before doing any orthobiologic treatment otherwise it will all be for nothing.

 

[BigTex]

I am going to check out Regenexx today. It seems to be covered by self funded insurance as well. Medicare Advantage may or may not cover this. We have places here in Houston that do this procedure. So I will find out more about it.

OK, so I contacted Regenexx here in Houston and talked to a sales associate. Sales???They don't take insurance at all. Red flags popping up all over the place for me. So right there I am asked to pay a whole lot of money on a hope and a dream because the research behind PRP and STEM cell is far from being accepted. In fact, I have done PRP 2 times and a much less expensive price and it was not effective at all. $2500 for PRP and I recently paid $350 cash. I use to work with a woman who had stem cell done in the hip and it was totally ineffective, she ended up with a total hip replacement. Their stem cell is $7500 so I would be financing over $1000 for one joint on a hope and a dream of it even being effective. They tell me their procedure for collecting stem cell is much better, yet it is the same procedure they rest do. PRP ain't rocket science either. Anytime a doctor doesn't take insurance is a huge red flag to me. I worked too hard for money in my life to have it taken from me. Sorry guys but Regenexx didn't sell me the price of a consultation. I can buy a whole lot of hGH for that kind of money. At least this seems to have been pretty effective.