Questions About HCG

[MunchEase]

Hey guys,
I am back again and have a question; hopefully other people can learn from the answers here as well! Thank you for your time. I am 23 years old, semi-professional athlete, eat extremely clean, and have been doing everything I can to optimize my testosterone levels over the last year. I was eventually put on 4 pumps Androgel/a day roughly four months ago. My numbers pre-TRT were between 280-400 ng/dl, and the reason the numbers were low was a mystery.

After nearly half a year, I finally discovered the reason I am secondary hypogonadal – most likely pseudo-cushing's syndrome. I repeatedly tested for over three times the standard amount of cortisol. Did an MRI and an adrenal ultrasound to rule out tumours, but cortisol remained high. I have been working on lowering the cortisol to a reasonable number then once that is done, hopefully coming off the TRT.

My numbers now are as follows:
Four months into Androgel:

Testosterone: 18.6 nmol/L (8.0-29.0)
Estradiol: 53 pmol/L (0-160)
LH: 2 IU/L (1-9)
FSH: 12 IU/L (1-18)
Progesterone: 3.7 nmol/L (0.0-3.0)
Free T4: 20.4 pmol/L (10.0-25.0)
Total T3: 1.7 nmol/L (1.1-2.8)
Doctor forgot to test free test.

I am still able to perform in the bedroom, but have an incredibly low libido and experience abnormal (for me) gym fatigue. To be honest, I would say I noticed a 20% improvement on Androgel – if that. It hasn't really done anything. I had the option of switching to injections, but was scared to change anything else – at least right now I am “functional”. Rather than upping the dose, I was considering adding in HCG – especially for maintaining fertility.

My questions are:
1) What did HCG do for you?
2) Did you notice a difference when taking it?
3) Are there any risks/negative side effects to HCG?
4) What is the best dosage?
5) And finally... Based on my numbers, do you believe I am a good candidate for HCG?


It seems like a no brainer - maintain testicle size, fertility, increase sex drive, but I know it isn't that simple and there has to be a catch to everything! Thank you! -H

 

[CoastWatcher]

Hey guys,
I am back again and have a question; hopefully other people can learn from the answers here as well! Thank you for your time. I am 23 years old, semi-professional athlete, eat extremely clean, and have been doing everything I can to optimize my testosterone levels over the last year. I was eventually put on 4 pumps Androgel/a day roughly four months ago. My numbers pre-TRT were between 280-400 ng/dl, and the reason the numbers were low was a mystery.

After nearly half a year, I finally discovered the reason I am secondary hypogonadal – most likely pseudo-cushing's syndrome. I repeatedly tested for over three times the standard amount of cortisol. Did an MRI and an adrenal ultrasound to rule out tumours, but cortisol remained high. I have been working on lowering the cortisol to a reasonable number then once that is done, hopefully coming off the TRT.

My numbers now are as follows:
Four months into Androgel:

Testosterone: 18.6 nmol/L (8.0-29.0)
Estradiol: 53 pmol/L (0-160)
LH: 2 IU/L (1-9)
FSH: 12 IU/L (1-18)
Progesterone: 3.7 nmol/L (0.0-3.0)
Free T4: 20.4 pmol/L (10.0-25.0)
Total T3: 1.7 nmol/L (1.1-2.8)
Doctor forgot to test free test.

I am still able to perform in the bedroom, but have an incredibly low libido and experience abnormal (for me) gym fatigue. To be honest, I would say I noticed a 20% improvement on Androgel – if that. It hasn't really done anything. I had the option of switching to injections, but was scared to change anything else – at least right now I am “functional”. Rather than upping the dose, I was considering adding in HCG – especially for maintaining fertility.

My questions are:
1) What did HCG do for you?
2) Did you notice a difference when taking it?
3) Are there any risks/negative side effects to HCG?
4) What is the best dosage?
5) And finally... Based on my numbers, do you believe I am a good candidate for HCG?


It seems like a no brainer - maintain testicle size, fertility, increase sex drive, but I know it isn't that simple and there has to be a catch to everything! Thank you! -H

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...e-Testicular-Shrinkage-and-Preserve-Fertility

Posted by Nelson.

 

[MunchEase]

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...e-Testicular-Shrinkage-and-Preserve-Fertility

Posted by Nelson.

Definitely read all of that, tons of valuable info there! I was just curious about people's personal accounts/experiences AND based on my labs, if for me it was a good idea.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

If you decide to use HCG, I would switch to injectable testosterone since you will be injecting already and most of us have a strong bias for injecting T since gels did not help us attain the benefits we were searching.

1) What did HCG do for you?
Gave me my balls and sexual edge back. I am not concerned about fertility.

2) Did you notice a difference when taking it?
My bulge is bigger and I have better sex drive.

3) Are there any risks/negative side effects to HCG?

Not for me. Some guys may get more acne.

4) What is the best dosage?
I use 500 IU twice per week. I combine T + HCG

5) And finally... Based on my numbers, do you believe I am a good candidate for HCG?

Numbers are not what determines hCG use (unless you showed us semen test analysis). It is how sexual you feel and what you think about the condition of your testicles (atrophy?).

 

[captq]

LOL what Nelson said including a return of sensitivity to the Penis and a ramped up sex drive.

and an incredible sense of well being / confidence.
I was doing well on testosterone therapy now I'm doing great with it I have been on it for about six weeks now at 100iu everyday.

I got my RX from Defy and Dr Saya since my endo would not prescribe

 

[Vettester Chris]

Without getting too comprehensive here, IMO, I think you need to also go a little deeper into the thyroid. I suspect your Reverse T3 /FT3 Ratio is not where it should be, and I suspect your T3 "might" be pooling and not adequately getting into the cells. The Cushing's subject and elevated cortisol for various reasons grabs my attention, and then noticing your thyroid serum levels are not anywhere even in relative comparison to their reference range .. FT4 is at 69%, and FT3 is at 35% of reference range.

^^^^What the wise man said above.

I don't need to add anymore other then you need more labs beyond what you posted.

SHBG? Prolacin?

 

[MunchEase]

If you decide to use HCG, I would switch to injectable testosterone since you will be injecting already and most of us have a strong bias for injecting T since gels did not help us attain the benefits we were searching.

1) What did HCG do for you?
Gave me my balls and sexual edge back. I am not concerned about fertility.

2) Did you notice a difference when taking it?
My bulge is bigger and I have better sex drive.

3) Are there any risks/negative side effects to HCG?

Not for me. Some guys may get more acne.

4) What is the best dosage?
I use 500 IU twice per week. I combine T + HCG

5) And finally... Based on my numbers, do you believe I am a good candidate for HCG?

Numbers are not what determines hCG use (unless you showed us semen test analysis). It is how sexual you feel and what you think about the condition of your testicles (atrophy?).

Thanks for your help buddy, the guidance from you and others on this site has really helped me through this process! My doctors are highly credible and they barely knew anything about HCG! It seems like a no brainer then - especially because TRT is (hopefully) temporary, I might as well run some HCG with it.

My doctor gave me the option of switching to 0.25ML/week cypionate instead of the four pumps Androgel. I'm not exactly sure how this works, and I know the variables are different because I am only 23, but isn't this a seriously low dose? Would I even benefit from this?

 

[MunchEase]

Without getting too comprehensive here, IMO, I think you need to also go a little deeper into the thyroid. I suspect your Reverse T3 /FT3 Ratio is not where it should be, and I suspect your T3 "might" be pooling and not adequately getting into the cells. The Cushing's subject and elevated cortisol for various reasons grabs my attention, and then noticing your thyroid serum levels are not anywhere even in relative comparison to their reference range .. FT4 is at 69%, and FT3 is at 35% of reference range.

^^^^What the wise man said above.

I don't need to add anymore other then you need more labs beyond what you posted.

SHBG? Prolacin?

My reverse T3 labs are on the way, I paid an extra $50 to get them. They take longer to do for some reason. My SHBG was usually pretty normal (30-35 nmol/L ref-10-55) and my prolactin was always in the normal ranges as well.

Doctors always told me my thyroid was fine, but they do only refer to the "reference ranges" and not the ratios or the whole package.

I have also ordered a 23andme test kit to test my genes, hopefully this answers some questions as well. If I gain anything from this, I will make sure to let you guys know.

 

[MunchEase]

I just got the second half of my most recent bloodwork. Here are the parts that the doctor missed.
Testosterone: 18.6 nmol/L (ref 8.0-29.0)
Free Testosterone: 304 pmol/L (ref 175-700)
DHEA: 11.3 umol/L (ref-2.2-13.0)
SHBG: 50 nmol/L (ref-10-55) ---> my SHBG was 34 four months ago and 30 two months ago. Why the sudden jump I have no idea.
Reverse T3: 20150817 (?)

Obviously these are not good numbers. The high SHBG/low free testosterone makes sense why I haven't really felt any better. Anyone have any insight?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Before addressing your concerns, is that really how your rT3 was reported?

 

[MunchEase]

Before addressing your concerns, is that really how your rT3 was reported?

Yeah I was confused as well, there wasn't any units or anything else listed besides that. Not sure if it's an error.

 

[Vettester Chris]

That RT3 "might" be a lab ID number they use internally? It's not a LabCorp number, but maybe one of the others? If so, possibly the doctor is just awaiting the test results? Call them up and double check.

I suggest getting your E2 tested, using the "Sensitive" platform. Do you have any recent liver enzyme test results, ALT, AST? Various prescription & non-prescription drugs, and/or alcohol can have a hepatotoxic effect on the liver. These are both areas that I'd probably be looking first if you're seeing changes with your SHBG.

 

[CoastWatcher]

That RT3 "might" be a lab ID number they use internally? It's not a LabCorp number, but maybe one of the others? If so, possibly the doctor is just awaiting the test results? Call them up and double check.

I suggest getting your E2 tested, using the "Sensitive" platform. Do you have any recent liver enzyme test results, ALT, AST? Various prescription & non-prescription drugs, and/or alcohol can have a hepatotoxic effect on the liver. These are both areas that I'd probably be looking first if you're seeing changes with your SHBG.

Chris, He's a Canadian, as am I, and the "sensitive" E2 test is almost impossible to find here (I travel to the States regularly and have mine run when I am there). It is a sad fact that, outside of the US, the appropriate estradiol test is scarce.

 

[MunchEase]

I had my ALT done a few months back, nothing was of concern.

I do take a shit ton of vitamins, I don't know if that could have anything to do with it... Currently I take:


2 tabs cod liver oil
5000 IU vitamin D
1 vitamin C tab
1 MG Methylcobalamin
2 MG Methylfolate
1 MG P-5-P
50 MG zinc


So I guess - does anyone have any "just for fun" recommended protocols? Unfortunately, the doctors I have aren't the best at figuring this stuff out, some not even knowing what HCG was.


I have been on 4 pumps daily Androgel for 4 months and seen minimal improvement - still have incredibly low libido, gym fatigue, absence of morning erections, etc, so obviously what I'm on isn't doing the trick, based on the numbers and how I'm actually feeling. Free T is brutal for a 23 year old on TRT.


My doctor wanted to switch me to 50 MG test cypionate per week, however, upon doing research I realized that dose would probably be high enough to shut down my natural production, but low enough not to experience any benefit - I could potentially be worse off.


I know HCG can increase SHBG, upon learning mine was high, I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.


I am also nervous to change anything, because while I am certainly not optimum, at least I can still function! I am afraid of changing things and completely crashing/having to go down a long path of getting at least back to "normal".


Does anyone have any suggestions?


I was thinking 25 MG cypionate bi-weekly and low dose HCG bi-weekly, enough to keep my fertility alive, but I have no idea. Most of what I learn is based on reading on this forum!

*I also find it odd how my SHBG went up after starting TRT, not down.

 

[dallas101346]

.25ml of cyp a week, thats only 50mg... that might leave you with very low numbers.

 

[Re-Ride]

Bi-weekly, I suspect you mean E3.5D rather than every other week. Wouldn't 25mg cyp taken either way shut down your axis as you are already doing with gel?

If the maximum hCG mono you tried wasn't 2500 to 4000 i.u. 3x weekly then you haven't fully explored hCG as at least a temporary option. I would try at least 1000-1500 i.u. every 72 hours.

I quit the vitamin mega dosing and went with serum level testing. Doing so had me cutting back on zinc and B12. I've been on prescribed D2, 50k i.u. followed by D3, 5-10k i.u. with little result after several years as determined by serum testing. Now I'm trying MK-7 (menaquinon) There isn't much solid evidence to support D supplementation with or without Vit K or calcium. Even Omega 3 supplementation is now being questioned. Getting what one needs from real food is always best even if that's difficult at times.

Maca might be worth trying for libido. High nitrate beet powder and possibly cordyceps are worth investigating. Paul Stamets has interesting views on fungi while others warn of mutations leading to cannibalism.

Good luck with the thyroid diagnostic.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Yiu have been on Androgel for four months; that means you have already suppressed your endogenous production. You are shut down, but not receiving sufficient exogenous testosterone to raise your levels. Not a comfortable situation.

 

[Vince Carter]

I had my ALT done a few months back, nothing was of concern.

I do take a shit ton of vitamins, I don't know if that could have anything to do with it... Currently I take:


2 tabs cod liver oil
5000 IU vitamin D
1 vitamin C tab
1 MG Methylcobalamin
2 MG Methylfolate
1 MG P-5-P
50 MG zinc


So I guess - does anyone have any "just for fun" recommended protocols? Unfortunately, the doctors I have aren't the best at figuring this stuff out, some not even knowing what HCG was.


I have been on 4 pumps daily Androgel for 4 months and seen minimal improvement - still have incredibly low libido, gym fatigue, absence of morning erections, etc, so obviously what I'm on isn't doing the trick, based on the numbers and how I'm actually feeling. Free T is brutal for a 23 year old on TRT.


My doctor wanted to switch me to 50 MG test cypionate per week, however, upon doing research I realized that dose would probably be high enough to shut down my natural production, but low enough not to experience any benefit - I could potentially be worse off.


I know HCG can increase SHBG, upon learning mine was high, I wasn't sure if it was a good idea or not.


I am also nervous to change anything, because while I am certainly not optimum, at least I can still function! I am afraid of changing things and completely crashing/having to go down a long path of getting at least back to "normal".


Does anyone have any suggestions?


I was thinking 25 MG cypionate bi-weekly and low dose HCG bi-weekly, enough to keep my fertility alive, but I have no idea. Most of what I learn is based on reading on this forum!

*I also find it odd how my SHBG went up after starting TRT, not down.

You were shut down two weeks after you started using Androgel and as another said, 25mg bi weekly is RIDICULOUSLY low dosage.

 

[MunchEase]

Bi-weekly, I suspect you mean E3.5D rather than every other week. Wouldn't 25mg cyp taken either way shut down your axis as you are already doing with gel?

If the maximum hCG mono you tried wasn't 2500 to 4000 i.u. 3x weekly then you haven't fully explored hCG as at least a temporary option. I would try at least 1000-1500 i.u. every 72 hours.

I quit the vitamin mega dosing and went with serum level testing. Doing so had me cutting back on zinc and B12. I've been on prescribed D2, 50k i.u. followed by D3, 5-10k i.u. with little result after several years as determined by serum testing. Now I'm trying MK-7 (menaquinon) There isn't much solid evidence to support D supplementation with or without Vit K or calcium. Even Omega 3 supplementation is now being questioned. Getting what one needs from real food is always best even if that's difficult at times.

Maca might be worth trying for libido. High nitrate beet powder and possibly cordyceps are worth investigating. Paul Stamets has interesting views on fungi while others warn of mutations leading to cannibalism.

Good luck with the thyroid diagnostic.

Interesting info and thanks for the input buddy! I've already experimented with cordyceps and found they didn't do much for me. I noticed when I took P-5-P (metabolized B6), my mood/energy improved greatly, not sure if that's something you'd wanna try yourself!

 

[MunchEase]

You were shut down two weeks after you started using Androgel and as another said, 25mg bi weekly is RIDICULOUSLY low dosage.

I know I am shut down - what I meant was I'm not *100%* suppressed with an LH of 2 and an FSH of 12. I think.

To clarify, I meant twice a week, not once every two weeks. My bad.

I know there's no definite answer, this takes forever to hit the nail on the head, everyone is different, and we're not "medical professionals" here. But how would you guys feel about this protocol? Jumping from my 4 pumps Androgel to 50 MG cypionate twice a week & 500 IU HCG twice a week, based on my numbers/information?

I apologize for the constant questioning but I honestly just need some guidance - I am fully taking shots in the dark here and know more about the subject than a lot of my doctors do! Thank you for your time!