Questioning both sides of HCG dosing frequency theory

[Blackhawk]

1: Dr Saya shared the results of his HCG level test study here: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?6133&p=32234#post32234

It seems that the most prevalent interpretation of this information is that a larger dose is more effective due to 1: the increased level in the blood, 2: the longer term high level effect, and 3 hence higher ongoing level stimulating effect on the testes.

However I question this interpretation; How much stimulation do the testes need compared to natural healthy diurnal stimulation by LH? i.e. the theory may be flawed by the idea that more is better. (Dr Saya's own discussion questions this, and states that ideal levels are probably somewhere in between the extremes of this test, and probably varies for the individual.)


2: Dr Crisler is now advising that he prefers daily dosing of lower amount, but averaging similar weekly totals to more closely mimic the diurnal/pulsatile nature of natural LH production. http://drjohncrisler.com/the-crisler-hcg-protocol---part-deux.html

So here the question is how consistent are results for guys' boys on this more subtle stimulation?


I pose these questions because in my own case I am on E3D dosing with both T and HCG and have symptoms of high E2 cycling every 3 days as well. (I should have a better picture when I get lab results back in the next week). At this point I have my own interpretation of why, which includes the combination of the effects of both, but due to relative half lives, believe it probably has more to do with the HCG than the T. My conclusion is that I may do better on lower doses more frequently. I'd like to hear other views/interpretations.

 

[FeelingLost]

From my own mini blood test over the last 12 months I determined for me HCG was increasing my E2 too much.
I am currently reducing my dose every 2 months until I see or feel atrophy or pain. I am currently 200iu M/W/F(600iu/wk)
it is injected with my T shot. I have been at this dose for the last 6 weeks and have no issues with size or pain.

I will be dropping to 400iu/wk after my July Defy 6 month bloodtest and consult. Having a low SHGB of 24.2 I find I feel my best when my E2 is between 20-28 Over 35 and I am balling moody edgy with no libido. My family does not see these effects I can control them and hold them inside. My .125 AI have come to my rescue so many times. I get relief within 4 hours of taking 1. I only take them when I feel this way. I like my E2 to be as high as possible for my joints.

 

[Vince]

I find that HCG dosing is a very individual thing. My HCG protocol is 500iu twice a week, I've been injecting that for over 3 1/2 years.

 

[Vince Carter]

The number one problem guys experience with HCG is an E bump whether that's supported by testing or purely subjective, but nonetheless this "I don't feel good on HCG" is rooted in the E bump. Further, aromatase in the testes is an environment where an AI is much less effective. It would be entirely plausible to work in to 100iu/D and see how you feel and if you can stay compliant with a daily stick.
On the other side of it is the also subjective feeling that HCG does not promote feelings of wellbeing and/or libido boost. There should be upstream conversion stimulated by the LH (HCG) but that clearly doesn't happen in a lot of guys to explain these feelings of HCG being like "water" (my word). If this worked we wouldn't have guys on DHEA and/or Preg, either. Heck it might even reverse a low T state if the downstream conversion was working...:shrug:

So it's easy to get discouraged with HCG. I dropped in to 200iu once per week and don't mess with it otherwise. I use it purely for the cosmetic appearance of my sack and I'm pleased and so is my GF with that.

Too there's a lot of you have to use HCG, and our Dr's promote this for good reason but then there's some exposure to liability for excluding HCG and the potential for some one to claim that their Dr induced organ failure by not using HCG.

 

[Sawdustmaker]

How are your HCG injection spaced apart? This is a question I can't seem to find a clear answer to. I'm switching to Defy Medical next month, but where I'm currently going has me taking an injection on the same day as my testosterone, then another the next day, .4 mg. I'm wondering why it isn't more evenly spaced.
Paul

 

[Vince]

I've always injected HCG on the same day that I injected testosterone. It keeps it so much simpler, I use the same kind of syringe in the same injection sites for a nice shallow IM.

 

[Blackhawk]

I had E2 swings on a 3 day cycle doing T cyp E3D and HCG E3D on the day preceeding T injection. I recently went to EOD with both in the same syringe, and the swings have evened out, though now I have added anastrozole to bring down the E2.

My recent copy/paste synopsis of Dr Saya and Crisler's outlook based on their articles and studies:

To me, Dr Saya's take home points of that study https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...dose-of-HCG-Dr-Saya-presents-two-case-studies :

"My clinical mind and instincts suggest that the “ideal” hCG dosage likely lies in between these two extremes (150iu vs 500iu) and ideal frequency will hinge upon ideal dosage (with 150iu or less dosages likely requiring daily or even more frequent injections) and larger dosages (500iu, possibly even slightly smaller) requiring no more frequent than twice weekly injections, but this conclusion simply cannot be made concretely from this limited data."

"a consensus on use and dosing/frequency has not been reached among practitioners and the situation is complicated by the degree of bio-hormonal individuality present across the population and the varying effects and goals of hCG treatment in different clinical scenarios (low SHBG levels, high estradiol levels, fertility concerns, etc). The data in this limited case study suggest that a dosage of 150iu hCG appears to attain minimal to moderate stimulation (serum concentration of 1mIU/mL) of the testicular leydig cells for a duration less than 24 hours and would likely be insufficient to attain continuous stimulation of the testicular leydig cells, UNLESS given on a daily basis, perhaps more frequently. Whereas, an injection of hCG 500iu appears to attain moderate stimulation (serum concentration 2mIU/mL -> 3mIU/mL -> 3mIU/mL -> 1mIU/mL) for a period slightly longer than
3 days (72 hours), likely enabling twice weekly, evenly spread, injections to attain continuous stimulation. As noted previously, I believe these patterns also suggest that a dosage regimen of hCG 250iu-350iu on an every other day (QOD) schedule would likely offer an alternative regimen for moderate, relatively steady and consistent testicular stimulation, although more data would be needed to confirm this conclusion."

And the bottom line for Crisler's outlook: http://drjohncrisler.com/the-crisler-hcg-protocol---part-deux.html :

"Since our goal in “Backfilling the Pathways” (subject of another report) is to produce as normal a hormonal landscape as possible, while simultaneously seizing control of the HPTA, providing a physiologic dose of the LH-mimic HCG is key. That means small, daily doses. Second best is a double daily dose, QOD (every other day). Third best is a triple dose Q3D (every third day). You get the pattern. I usually start them off at 100-150iu QD, based upon previous Medical History and, frankly, how I feel at the time about their case."

"If you are taking test cyp shots twice per week, and want to take HCG similarly, take the HCG (250-500iu) the day before the test cyp shot, each time. We don't want to unnecessarily stack the HCG on top of the test cyp shot. If you are doing QOD or even daily test cyp shots (some actually do), it won't matter."

LOL! The questions and answers remain pretty much the same...

 

[HealthMan]

I use HCG as part of my fertility regimen and to keep my testicles from atrophying. To achieve this i need higher single dosages. For example: 400IU twice a week vs 300IU 3x a week. With the later sperm count dropped close to zero and testicles got smaller... with the former no issues.

 

[Sawdustmaker]

So based on your response, I assume you're injecting testosterone twice a week, and the HCG with it? Currently I'm injecting test once per week, so I was trying to figure out whether I should spread out the 2 HCG injections. Where I am currently, he has me doing it back to back days, which doesn't make sense to me. He has some sort of theory of not wanting the body to become desensitized or something.

 

[Vince]

If you're injecting HCG twice a week you should inject it every three and a half days. So inject it on your injection day of T and then three and a half days later.

 

[Sawdustmaker]

Thanks Vince. That makes more sense based on the 3 1/2 day half life.

 

[Kirk001]

Thanks Vince. That makes more sense based on the 3 1/2 day half life.

The half-life of HCG is 2 days.

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...-of-medications-Most-underrated-aspect-of-TRT

 

[Vince]