Question for some of the knowledgeable guys on the board about HCG

[antelopers]

Thinking of guys like you @Cataceous !

I've heard it argued recently that HCG is not similar enough to LH to have the same exact effect. The beta subunit is very different than LH. Essentially they're saying just because it triggers the LH receptor, doesn't mean it's actually having the same effects as LH. It also acts on other processes in the body besides LH receptors, and is never found in men naturally at these levels, and therefore may not be a good drug for men after all.

On the other hand we know it has some positive effects in men and can at least act as an analog to an extent.

Luteinizing hormone and human chorionic gonadotropin: origins of difference - PubMed

Luteinizing hormone (LH) and human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) are widely recognized for their roles in ovulation and the support of early pregnancy. Aside from the timing of expression, however, the differences between LH and hCG have largely been overlooked in the clinical realm because of...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I came across this study when looking for info on this. It seems to be implying what some are arguing recently - HCG binds to the same receptor but had vastly different effects than LH.

The mechanisms of action, subunits, importance of LH stimulation, etc are all a bit over my head, so if anyone has some data, insights, or opinions, I think this is an interesting discussion to be had.

 

[Cataceous]

I won't claim to have any more knowledge of the specifics. Curt Moyer has also called attention to these issues:

HCG Is Not Actually LH - Peak Testosterone

HCG is currently very popular with several groups of men here in the U.S.Secondary hypogonadal men on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy)

www.peaktestosterone.com

My concern about hCG is also utilitarian: it can raise estradiol to levels well above what we'd have naturally at the same testosterone level. This is partly why I'm seeing if LH can be produced under TRT. There will likely always be tradeoffs; making LH while on TRT probably requires a SERM, and when you dig into SERMs a little more you see that they are not as well understood as you might like for something you'd be taking long-term.

 

[antelopers]

I won't claim to have any more knowledge of the specifics. Curt Moyer has also called attention to these issues:

HCG Is Not Actually LH - Peak Testosterone

HCG is currently very popular with several groups of men here in the U.S.Secondary hypogonadal men on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy)

www.peaktestosterone.com

My concern about hCG is also utilitarian: it can raise estradiol to levels well above what we'd have naturally at the same testosterone level. This is partly why I'm seeing if LH can be produced under TRT. There will likely always be tradeoffs; making LH while on TRT probably requires a SERM, and when you dig into SERMs a little more you see that they are not as well understood as you might like for something you'd be taking long-term.

Response appreciated and thanks for the link. In my experience it definitely raises my estradiol significantly as well. Although the higher estradiol increases my sense of well being, there are certainly other concerns.

When I was a patient of Dr Gordon, he had me on injectable testosterone plus clomid. Initially it was 50mg clomid once per week, then changed to 25mg e3d. I do not handle clomid well. I feel depressed to the point of having suicidal thoughts, brain fog, etc. It didn't raise my LH from 0 on trt.

When trying a clomid restart, I also got permanent eye floaters, and went to the eye doctor who noted significant pressure in one eye. The pressure disappeared after ceasing clomid but the floaters did not. I hate clomid as a drug for men personally.

 

[Cataceous]

...
When I was a patient of Dr Gordon, he had me on injectable testosterone plus clomid. Initially it was 50mg clomid once per week, then changed to 25mg e3d. I do not handle clomid well. I feel depressed to the point of having suicidal thoughts, brain fog, etc. It didn't raise my LH from 0 on trt.
...

This is because both androgens and estrogens suppress GnRH production at the hypothalamus. A SERM stops the negative feedback only from the estrogens. In contrast, at the pituitary the negative feedback on gonadotropin production is mainly from estrogens, and a SERM is effective. Therefore, if GnRH is delivered directly then the pituitary can be coaxed to make LH and FSH, even concurrent with TRT, as described here.

I wonder if your side effects from Clomid were mainly due to zuclomiphene? It's a travesty that the FDA did not approve enclomiphene, which would have led to more widespread availability. Having only one legitimate source makes its use a tenuous proposition. Other SERMs may work, but each could have issues. For example, the liver toxicity of tamoxifen.

 

[antelopers]

This is because both androgens and estrogens suppress GnRH production at the hypothalamus. A SERM stops the negative feedback only from the estrogens. In contrast, at the pituitary the negative feedback on gonadotropin production is mainly from estrogens, and a SERM is effective. Therefore, if GnRH is delivered directly then the pituitary can be coaxed to make LH and FSH, even concurrent with TRT, as described here.

I wonder if your side effects from Clomid were mainly due to zuclomiphene? It's a travesty that the FDA did not approve enclomiphene, which would have led to more widespread availability. Having only one legitimate source makes its use a tenuous proposition. Other SERMs may work, but each could have issues. For example, the liver toxicity of tamoxifen.

I never tried enclomiphene. I suspect the zuclomiphene could be the issue based on what I've read. I can also say that previously using nolva years ago for other purposes, the sides weren't nearly as drastic, although I wouldn't say I felt good on that either.

 

[DorianGray]

Response appreciated and thanks for the link. In my experience it definitely raises my estradiol significantly as well. Although the higher estradiol increases my sense of well being, there are certainly other concerns.

When I was a patient of Dr Gordon, he had me on injectable testosterone plus clomid. Initially it was 50mg clomid once per week, then changed to 25mg e3d. I do not handle clomid well. I feel depressed to the point of having suicidal thoughts, brain fog, etc. It didn't raise my LH from 0 on trt.

When trying a clomid restart, I also got permanent eye floaters, and went to the eye doctor who noted significant pressure in one eye. The pressure disappeared after ceasing clomid but the floaters did not. I hate clomid as a drug for men personally.

Describes my experience with Clomid also. Estrogen levels spiked, muscle strength went down, libido decreased. Also, took DIM as recommended by MD to ameliorate Estrogen, but it had no effect. In my opinion, if you have a physician wanting to put you on Clomid (unless you're young and want to have children), run as fast as you can.