Personal experiences with both HCG Monotherapy and TRT?

[newguy128]

11/29/16 before MK-677 labs.

I am a 70 Y.O. male and have been on HCG Monotherapy for a few months to raise my falling Test levels.

The labs above indicate where I am at after a few months of HCG.

I did Clomid for awhile which also worked well, getting me a little above the max Tot T. range.

Currently been subscribed 350IU HCG EOD, sometimes I do 250IU EOD and I don't notice any difference in the two amounts.

I do 12.5mg of Aromasin EOD or the same day as HCG to counter estrogen.

The above labs where done as a baseline to see where my IGF-1 and blood sugar levels will be after two months of MK-677. As my IGF-1 levels have been consistently low.

So my question is for those that have done both HCG Monotherapy and TRT. What differences have you experienced between the two compounds? The pros and cons of both?

Also thinking that adding TRT to HCG would/should be a plus, at least cognitively, physically, energy wise, concentration/focus, getting things done, etc?

Any input appreciated, thanks.

 

[CoastWatcher]

View attachment 2912 11/29/16 before MK-677 labs.

I am a 70 Y.O. male and have been on HCG Monotherapy for a few months to raise my falling Test levels.

The labs above indicate where I am at after a few months of HCG.

I did Clomid for awhile which also worked well, getting me a little above the max Tot T. range.

Currently been subscribed 350IU HCG EOD, sometimes I do 250IU EOD and I don't notice any difference in the two amounts.

I do 12.5mg of Aromasin EOD or the same day as HCG to counter estrogen.

The above labs where done as a baseline to see where my IGF-1 and blood sugar levels will be after two months of MK-677. As my IGF-1 levels have been consistently low.

So my question is for those that have done both HCG Monotherapy and TRT. What differences have you experienced between the two compounds? The pros and cons of both?

Also thinking that adding TRT to HCG would/should be a plus, at least cognitively, physically, energy wise, concentration/focus, getting things done, etc?

Any input appreciated, thanks.

May I ask why you and your doctor chose to use Clomid and HCG/mono in the face of low testosterone? What were the considerations that caused you to adopt those protocols as opposed to adopting exogenous testosterone?

 

[Vince]

I would recommend a good TRT protocol, which includes both testosterone and HCG. Have estradiol tested with sensitive test.
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?1395-What-is-a-Normal-Blood-Level-of-Testosterone

 

[newguy128]

Personal experiences with both HCG Monotherapy and TRT?

May I ask why you and your doctor chose to use Clomid and HCG/mono in the face of low testosterone? What were the considerations that caused you to adopt those protocols as opposed to adopting exogenous testosterone?

R. Thanks CoastWatcher:

Initially I chose Clomid and HCG to bring my Test levels back up to a better range. Previously they were in the Tot. T. 400-500 range, where before they were in the 600-900 range.

Neither the VA, nor my VA-PC Doc, deals with or prescribe hormones or ancillaries unless it is service connected. I did HCG on my own w/o a Doc based on my prior lab results.

Then I recently went with Defy Medical. After a consult with Dr. Saya explaining my situation, how I was on the fence about TRT for the time being, my labs, etc., so he prescribed the HCG. With a optional TRT program if I choose to go that way.

Being on the fence about doing TRT I thought if I could get my T levels up to the upper limit with HCG, then good. If not, then maybe consider trying TRT. But TRT appears to be a life time commitment. I also realize one could try it out for awhile with HCG. If I didn't like it, I could do a PCT and get back to normal, hopefully?

So have you had any experiences with HCG Monotherapy or TRT or both together? If so, can you describe your personal experiences with both, Pros and Cons?

Thanks.

 

[newguy128]

I would recommend a good TRT protocol, which includes both testosterone and HCG. Have estradiol tested with sensitive test.
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?1395-What-is-a-Normal-Blood-Level-of-Testosterone

R. Thanks Vince. Have you had any experiences with HCG monotherapy? If so, what differences have you noticed between HCG Monotherapy and TRT?

 

[James]

newguy128 - I went the other route, opting for TRT at 42 years old...45 now. I'm interested in seeing how the guys respond to your question. I've never taken HCG and have been fortunate not to have experienced any testicular atrophy or any of the other challenges some guys face. I keep saying I will add it to my program one day, but I'm really in a good place right now with TRT and not wanting to change that, at least not yet. I'm curious to know what your LH & FSH numbers looked like prior to choosing HCG. I see you also took Clomid.

 

[Vince]

R. Thanks Vince. Have you had any experiences with HCG monotherapy? If so, what differences have you noticed between HCG Monotherapy and TRT?

I've never used HCG alone with no testosterone, I inject both T and HCG every 3 1/2 days. I really like how it makes me feel physically and mentally. Sometimes TRT is no enough, so many people have thyroid problems, sleep issues and other mental and physical problems.

 

[Re-Ride]

I started on hCG mono decades ago, went on poorly manged TRT for years then back on hCG mono about two years ago. Then dual therapy about 9 months ago. Dual was the best.

hCG requires refrigeration. AAS should be kept temperature stable. Injecting either safely requires a clean environment. It's risky business to begin any HRT unless you know that you are going to have guaranteed access to affordable housing. That's not a luxury most seniors have thanks to the Fed and the hyperinflation it created. At 400 you might want to consider holding on rather than risk a crash at the same time you find yourself homeless.

 

[newguy128]

newguy128 - I'm curious to know what your LH & FSH numbers looked like prior to choosing HCG.

R. Thanks for your reply.

To answer your question:

3/7/16: Before Clomid or HCG: LH 9.49-H, mIU/mL, Ref. Range: 1.24 - 8.62.
FSH: 5:04, mIU/mL, Ref. Range: 1.27 - 19.26.

So looks like my body was trying to produce more Testosterone, but my T levels were not improving. And looked like I was experiencing some testicular atrophy. So I did Clomid for about two weeks, then when I received the HCG I started daily low dose HCG.

I did the HCG for a week, then stopped the HCG and went back to Clomid the week prior to doing labs, so as not to skew my labs too much.

8/1/16: After Clomid/HCG my VA labs were as follows:

LH: 14.87 H, Ref. Range: 1.24 - 8.62.
FSH: 8.81 mIU/mL, Ref. Range: 1.27 - 19.26.

Tot. Test: 1114 H, ng/dL, Ref. Range: 250 - 1100.
Free Test: 95.7 pg/mL, Ref. Range: 35 - 155.
Serum Estradiol: 36 H pg/mL, Ref. Range: < 29
DHEA S: 677 H mcg/dL, Ref. Range: 24 - 244. (Started taking daily 50mg oral DHEA prior to labs.)
DHEA S: On 3/7/16 was at 31mcg/dL, Ref. Range: 24 - 244.
Vit B12: 1500 H pg/ml, Ref. Range: 190 - 1200. (Started taking B-12 2500mcg prior to labs).

So I attribute the high Tot. Test. more to the Clomid, as I did the Clomid for 3 weeks total prior to these labs. And the HCG two weeks before these labs.

8/31/16 LabCorp labs on daily low dose HCG and Aromasin:

Tot. Test: 521 ng/dL, Ref. Range: 348 - 1197.
Free Test: 23.6 High pg/mL, Ref. Range: 6.6 - 18.1.
LH: 15.4 High mIU/mL, Ref. Range: 1.7 - 8.6.
FSH: 7.5 mIU/mL, Ref. Range: 1.5 - 12.4.
Prolactin: 18.9 High ng/mL, Ref. Range: 4.0 - 15.2.
IGF-1: 44 Low, Ref. Range: 47 - 192.
Estradiol, Sensitive: 34.0 pg/mL, Ref. Range: 8 - 35.

Although my Tot. Test. was lower here, my Free Test. was higher on the HCG. I'm sure the Aromasin helped here also, as my estrogen levels were lower, but within range.

I recently started Cabergoline .25mg twice a week to reduce my prolactin levels.

 

[Vince Carter]

Not too many guys here are on or have been on mono, just about everyone seems to move quickly to Cypionate injections as just about anything else just doesn't work nearly as well, or well enough. The Test and HCG dual modes are pretty much the standard.

 

[newguy128]

I've never used HCG alone with no testosterone, I inject both T and HCG every 3 1/2 days. I really like how it makes me feel physically and mentally. Sometimes TRT is no enough, so many people have thyroid problems, sleep issues and other mental and physical problems.

R. Okay thanks Vince for your reply.

 

[newguy128]

It's risky business to begin any HRT unless you know that you are going to have guaranteed access to affordable housing. That's not a luxury most seniors have thanks to the Fed and the hyperinflation it created.

R. Makes sense, I am on a fixed income, but have housing at a reduced rate according to my income.

At 400 you might want to consider holding on rather than risk a crash at the same time you find yourself homeless.

R. I assume here you mean 400 Tot. Test or above? Would kind of suck being homeless and crashing on Test w/o ancillaries...!! Like magnifying a bad situation 10 fold!!!

Similarly, what happens when patients on TRT get locked up for any reason or the lack thereof? Do they get there meds or can the jail refuse to allow inmates to get their bi-weekly Test injections, HCG and ancillaries?

I can't imagine crashing on Test while in jail w/o ancillaries?

Anyone ever have an experience or knowledge with this dilemma?

 

[Vince Carter]

R. I assume here you mean 400 Tot. Test or above? Would kind of suck being homeless and crashing on Test w/o ancillaries...!! Like magnifying a bad situation 10 fold!!!

Similarly, what happens when patients on TRT get locked up for any reason or the lack thereof? Do they get there meds or can the jail refuse to allow inmates to get their bi-weekly Test injections, HCG and ancillaries?

I can't imagine crashing on Test while in jail w/o ancillaries?

Anyone ever have an experience or knowledge with this dilemma?

I would say that one that is facing something like this, being homeless or imprisoned, that person has much larger problems and their priorities are all wrong trying to do anything in the HRT spectrum. As far as a crash...so you go back to your Low T baseline. That's not a crash, that's not a fair word to use, you simply return to the previous state.

 

[newguy128]

Not too many guys here are on or have been on mono, just about everyone seems to move quickly to Cypionate injections as just about anything else just doesn't work nearly as well, or well enough. The Test and HCG dual modes are pretty much the standard.

R. Thanks. I searched initially before posting my thread, but couldn't find much of an answer. But after posting my original OP, I found and read a few HCG Monotherapy posts...posted my Vergel Nelson explaining the difference between HCG mono and TRT with HCG.

That though HCG and Clomid both assist in getting Test back to normal, they don't offer the same benefits as TRT does.

I would expect a more androgenic effect with the addition of Test to the HCG. Something HCG or Clomid I believe individually doesn't offer, even though your labs look okay-good, high Tot. & Free T.

 

[newguy128]

I would say that one that is facing something like this, being homeless or imprisoned, that person has much larger problems and their priorities are all wrong trying to do anything in the HRT spectrum. As far as a crash...so you go back to your Low T baseline. That's not a crash, that's not a fair word to use, you simply return to the previous state.

R. I think you may have misinterpreted my question/post.

Generally speaking you might think this, but sometimes people slip through the cracks for reasons beyond their control and become homeless. ie; May have a serious health issues, no health ins., lost their job, no money, no food, no vehicle, house burnt to the ground, etc. Stuff happens daily.

I wasn't referring to people already homeless. I was referring to people who get locked up for no real reasons other than the controlling attitude of the LEO, no probable cause, etc. Happens on a daily basis.

I'm speaking of people on TRT it could happen too. Nothing to do with priorities, its about how does one deal with this situation IF it happens? Can the jail prevent you from continuing your TRT meds while incarcerated? Will the prescribing clinic still provide you with the TRT meds if informed of your situation?

That was my question.

That's not a crash, that's not a fair word to use, you simply return to the previous state.

R. So what's the fair word to use when you are on TRT and HCG, then all of a sudden you don't have access to those meds and ancillaries anymore?

You believe you don't need ancillaries to get back to normal? You believe your T levels will simply return to normal w/o any sides and discomfort?

How long do you think it would take to get your T levels back to normal w/o the assistance of HCG and ancillaries?

 

[Re-Ride]

N.G.128, I suspect you have symptoms not being adequately addressed on your current protocol. Regardless of numbers most report feeling better on TRT combo compared with hCG mono. I'm less inclined to worry about numbers and go with how I feel. I only began feeling well after I included bulk amino powders, high grade whey, and a few proven supplements with hCG-cyp.
Yes it's wise to plan ahead for a sudden withdrawal before you begin TRT. No you won't be allowed hormones in jail or prison except in rare circumstances. The historically common reasons for homelessness you list are for a normal housing market not the current West Coast shortage where even well paid techies find themselves living on the street on short notice.

Vince Carter, "you simply return to the previous state" Good luck on that. And no, maintaining one's health in the face of serious life challenges is exactly what may be required to see you through.

 

[johndoesmith]

View attachment 2912 11/29/16 before MK-677 labs.

I am a 70 Y.O. male and have been on HCG Monotherapy for a few months to raise my falling Test levels.

The labs above indicate where I am at after a few months of HCG.

I did Clomid for awhile which also worked well, getting me a little above the max Tot T. range.

Currently been subscribed 350IU HCG EOD, sometimes I do 250IU EOD and I don't notice any difference in the two amounts.

I do 12.5mg of Aromasin EOD or the same day as HCG to counter estrogen.

The above labs where done as a baseline to see where my IGF-1 and blood sugar levels will be after two months of MK-677. As my IGF-1 levels have been consistently low.

So my question is for those that have done both HCG Monotherapy and TRT. What differences have you experienced between the two compounds? The pros and cons of both?

Also thinking that adding TRT to HCG would/should be a plus, at least cognitively, physically, energy wise, concentration/focus, getting things done, etc?

Any input appreciated, thanks.

Amazing to see a 70 year old guy trying to preserve his HPTA, as well as being so technically inclined, my 59 year old coworker can't use a computer or find an appropriate forum to use like this!

That being said, I see very few downsides for a 70 year old guy regarding TRT, with younger guys the concern is that it's a life long protocol, and not being able to understand the severity of that decision.

Do you happen to have the other pages of the lab sheet from 11/29/16?

I am slightly concerned at your 8/31/16 results, as your LH is sky high while on hCG! That indicates you are not sufficiently giving your body the testosterone it needs. Also I wonder if the hCG is even doing anything, as an LH of 15 is rather significant.

What were your pre-treatment total testosterone and e2 levels like?

Also, your need for such high doses of AI are rather concerning, and I think it may be due to the use of hCG. You might not need it with TRT.

 

[newguy128]

johndoesmith:

Do you happen to have the other pages of the lab sheet from 11/29/16?

R. That's it-one page. These are base labs to compare with my labs after 2 months on MK-677.

I am slightly concerned at your 8/31/16 results, as your LH is sky high while on hCG! That indicates you are not sufficiently giving your body the testosterone it needs.

R. Thanks for your concern, but maybe I am missing something here? As I figure if you inject HCG or take Clomid your LH levels will be elevated.

Also I wonder if the hCG is even doing anything?

R. Look at the lab results in post #9.

What were your pre-treatment total testosterone and e2 levels like?

R. Don't have the exact numbers right now, but Tot. T. fluctuated from around 400-600 last few years. While previously around 700-900, so big drop for me. Same with Free T.

E2 has been on the high end of the scale. IGF-1 levels are really low, but may be considered normal for a guy my age. Everything declines with age.

Also, your need for such high doses of AI are rather concerning, and I think it may be due to the use of hCG.

R. You think 12.5mg of Aromasin EOD or every 3rd day is high?

The normal Aromasin dosage is 25mg. Given my estradiol labs the 12.5mg EOD dosage seems appropriate. Clomid and HCG both increase estrogen as shown in my labs. Also might be the DHEA converting to estrogen. My 11/29/16 labs show my estrogen is at 29.9 ng/mL, which is within the Ref. Range: 8.0 - 35. So I must be doing something right with the 12.5 mg Aromasin dosage.

You might not need it with TRT.

R. Are you referring to the HCG or Aromasin?

If I was to do the HCG/TRT combo therapy, I would think there would be a greater need for an AI like Aromasin. As both HCG and Test can cause an increase in estrogen. As a plus Aromasin increases IGF-1 levels to a degree, whereas I believe Arimidex lowers IGF-1 levels.

 

[johndoesmith]

R. Thanks for your concern, but maybe I am missing something here? As I figure if you inject HCG or take Clomid your LH levels will be elevated.

If you take clomid, yes, if you take hCG, no. On 8/31/16 your LH was 15 while you were injecting hCG but NOT taking clomid, correct?

R. Look at the lab results in post #9.

Yes, I see an 1100 total testosterone level, but LH is 15. hCG binds to the same receptor that LH does, so with such a high level of LH, it stands to reason whether or not the hCG is actually doing any of the work, or if it's just your naturally produced LH doing most of the work.

Either way, you are not sufficiently replacing your testosterone. Your body is screaming for more, as evidenced by the 15 LH level. It's higher than BEFORE you started hCG.

The only way this is understandable is if you're on clomid on 8/31/16. That's why I wished you had LH and FSH tested on the most recent results.

R. You think 12.5mg of Aromasin EOD or every 3rd day is high?

The normal Aromasin dosage is 25mg. Given my estradiol labs the 12.5mg EOD dosage seems appropriate. Clomid and HCG both increase estrogen as shown in my labs. Also might be the DHEA converting to estrogen. My 11/29/16 labs show my estrogen is at 29.9 ng/mL, which is within the Ref. Range: 8.0 - 35. So I must be doing something right with the 12.5 mg Aromasin dosage.

Yes. That's a high dose. Aromasin is a rather strong AI, and you're taking more AI than I think any other member on this board is. You're taking the right dose for you, but I do wonder if most of your aromatization is due to using hCG.

As in, if you used TRT to get to the same levels, it may aromatize less, due to NOT taking such large doses of hCG.

R. Are you referring to the HCG or Aromasin?

If I was to do the HCG/TRT combo therapy, I would think there would be a greater need for an AI like Aromasin. As both HCG and Test can cause an increase in estrogen. As a plus Aromasin increases IGF-1 levels to a degree, whereas I believe Arimidex lowers IGF-1 levels.

I'm referring to the aromasin.

You'll use less hCG on TRT, as it's only purpose is to maintain the testes and possibly other hormones the testes make.

You're correct that hCG and TRT increase E2, but hCG can sometimes cause MORE E2 to be produced than straight testosterone will.

It's by what's called "intratesticular aromatization". That doesn't happen with TRT as much.

 

[newguy128]

If you take clomid, yes, if you take hCG, no.

R. Do you have a link to the article that explains this?

JDS: On 8/31/16 your LH was 15 while you were injecting hCG but NOT taking clomid, correct?

R. Mostly HCG, correct.

JDS: Yes, I see an 1100 total testosterone level, but LH is 15. hCG binds to the same receptor that LH does,

R. Okay.

JDS: so with such a high level of LH, it stands to reason whether or not the hCG is actually doing any of the work, or if it's just your naturally produced LH doing most of the work.

R. My thinking is if you inject HCG, you raise your LH levels accordingly. The HCG mimics LH and binds to the LH receptors, which means your natural LH gets suppressed. So it stands to reason the HCG is doing the work.

JDS: Either way, you are not sufficiently replacing your testosterone. Your body is screaming for more, as evidenced by the 15 LH level. It's higher than BEFORE you started hCG.

R. My 8/31/16 labs showed a Free Test: 23.6 High pg/mL, Ref. Range: 6.6 - 18.1. So the HCG elevated my LH levels in order to produce that Free Test lab reading, which seems pretty sufficient to me. The LH levels should be high considering I inject HCG 3-4 times a week.

JDS: So that's what I'm not getting, you believe the more HCG one injects the lower your LH levels should be...? If you can provide me a link that explains that, maybe I would understand.

JDS: The only way this is understandable is if you're on clomid on 8/31/16.

R. Again, I will need a link that explains this theory.

JDS: Yes. That's a high dose. Aromasin is a rather strong AI, and you're taking more AI than I think any other member on this board is. You're taking the right dose for you, but I do wonder if most of your aromatization is due to using hCG.

R. 12.5mg of Aromasin EOD is a less than a half a normal dose of 25mg every day. I have no clue what others are taking for an AI dosage or what brand name? Those on HCG Monotherapy should use a AI to control excess estrogen caused by HCG in order to reap any benefits from the HCG monotherapy.

Likely most of the estrogen conversion is from HCG and why I take low dose Aromasin EOD. Also the DHEA and elevated Test levels are also converting to estrogen to a degree.

JDS: As in, if you used TRT to get to the same levels, it may aromatize less, due to NOT taking such large doses of hCG.

R. If I was on TRT my HCG dose would probably be the same.

JDS: I'm referring to the aromasin.

R. Okay.

JDS: You'll use less hCG on TRT,

R. Maybe, but I believe about the same...1000IU per week or maybe 500IU?

JDS: as it's only purpose is to maintain the testes and possibly other hormones the testes make.

R. FSH.

JDS: You're correct that hCG and TRT increase E2, but hCG can sometimes cause MORE E2 to be produced than straight testosterone will.

R. And why I and others on HCG Monotherapy should use a low dose AI like Aromasin EOD.

JDS: It's by what's called "intratesticular aromatization". That doesn't happen with TRT as much.

R. Okay.

Thanks to all posters for posting, appreciate the replies and info and Merry Xmas to all!