Nebido(undecaonate) daily sub q Ed

[Patlamenace]

Here is my labs since I switched to sub q injections 9 weeks ago

i currently inject 0.1 ml daily in the morning
If my calculations are correct it corresponds to 150 mg of testosterone enanthate a week

(nebido is 4ml 1000 mg T undecaonate =631.5 mg testosterone)

E2 141 pmol/l =38 pg/ml

total testosterone 39.2nmol/
1130 ng/dL

free testosterone 1111 pmol/l
=32 ng/dL
(if my calculations are correct: (1111/3,47 )/10

Shbg 25 nmol/l

what do you guys think of these numbers?

still have Ed and penis looks smaller when flaccid (specially in the morning almost half the size of the evening ) cannt achieve a proper erection lack of sensibility .no woods in the morning ,sometimes during the night but like during the day not really hard.

 

[Patlamenace]

Ps:e2 is mesured with eclia method witch I think is not sensitive

 

[bochinit]

Switch to E/C and try the same dosage or lower split in two times per week if possible. Undecanoate is not a good ester to manipulate without experience.

 

[Patlamenace]

Switch to E/C and try the same dosage or lower split in two times per week if possible. Undecanoate is not a good ester to manipulate without experience.

Switch to E/C and try the same dosage or lower split in two times per week if possible. Undecanoate is not a good ester to manipulate without experience.

if E /C means enantate or cipionate,it s not going to be possible .i only have access to undecaonate in my country.could you tell me why you think going to twice a week would be better? What do you think about my numbers?

 

[Patlamenace]

I used to pin twice a week intra muscular I switched to every day injection to see if maybe it would be better for erection ,I still do not know where exactly is my e2 since I can only test it with eclia method here in Switzerland

 

[Cataceous]

The long half-life of testosterone undecanoate means that injecting more frequently than once a week probably has very little effect on serum testosterone, which is going to be pretty constant after stabilization on a fixed protocol.

Did you have the same problems before starting TRT, or did some things improve while others got worse?

You may be starting to suspect that adjusting your testosterone is not the answer. However, in these circumstances I might try an extended period with serum testosterone at a level that is closer to where it would be naturally at one's prime—and when everything is working right. Because we don't usually have this information we might use the averages for healthy young men. A typical Tru-T calculated free testosterone level is 24 ng/dL. With an SHBG of 25 nMol/L and default albumin this puts total testosterone at around 700 ng/dL. A fair test may require half a year: three months to make the transition and another three months for evaluation.

Have you tried hCG? For some men, adding this to TRT is a large enhancement. Have you measured prolactin? Progesterone? Thyroid hormones? DHT? It looks as though you've already experimented with AI use. Beyond these there are other things to try, but they are more experimental, without even a lot of anecdotal evidence to back them up.

 

[Patlamenace]

The long half-life of testosterone undecanoate means that injecting more frequently than once a week probably has very little effect on serum testosterone, which is going to be pretty constant after stabilization on a fixed protocol.

Did you have the same problems before starting TRT, or did some things improve while others got worse?

You may be starting to suspect that adjusting your testosterone is not the answer. However, in these circumstances I might try an extended period with serum testosterone at a level that is closer to where it would be naturally at one's prime—and when everything is working right. Because we don't usually have this information we might use the averages for healthy young men. A typical Tru-T calculated free testosterone level is 24 ng/dL. With an SHBG of 25 nMol/L and default albumin this puts total testosterone at around 700 ng/dL. A fair test may require half a year: three months to make the transition and another three months for evaluation.

Have you tried hCG? For some men, adding this to TRT is a large enhancement. Have you measured prolactin? Progesterone? Thyroid hormones? DHT? It looks as though you've already experimented with AI use. Beyond these there are other things to try, but they are more experimental, without even a lot of anecdotal evidence to back them up.

I do not mind injecting every day since I prefer sub q than im(had twice oil micro emboly with is not cool at all . Do not have access to hcg .i got everything tested before except dht .everything was in range . I tryed I hate arimidex it gets me really anxious even with really low dosage like 0.003 mg I can feel it .i took this dosage once 2 days before I did labs ,dunno if it lowered my e2 tho and if,how much. When I started trt at the age of 36 I was on cream felt really good but contamined my daughter so even tho now she is older and comes less in my arms cream is no more an option for me. It’s been only a few weeks since I am on du q .is it possible that since it is undecaonate it might take months to stabilise and maybe I would heel better then?

 

[Patlamenace]

*i would feel better

 

[Patlamenace]

Any idear how I could calculated the dosage I need to lower my t to 700 ?does a simple « rule of three »work for that?

 

[Cataceous]

"In range" for lab results doesn't mean optimal. You should post your results to get some additional feedback. For example, in some cases above-average, but "normal" prolactin is problematic.

If you did well on testosterone cream then you might try a hybrid approach: lower the injection doses, perhaps even more than discussed, and apply a small daily dose of cream to the scrotum where there's less risk of contaminating others.

It's true that it takes months to stabilize with testosterone undecanoate. However, if you simply changed from IM to SC at about the same overall dose then the perturbation is smaller and there's less chance of experiencing large subjective improvements going forward.

If SHBG doesn't change then it's not unreasonable to assume that total serum testosterone is going to be roughly proportional to dose. To use your current numbers, let's assume that your total testosterone will rise to 1,200 ng/dL before stabilizing, because it's only been nine weeks. Using proportionality, your dose to achieve 700 ng/dL would be 700 / 1,200 * 25 mg TU/d = 14.6 mg TU/d = 0.06 mL TU/d @ 250 mg/mL. So essentially it's a dose reduction of 40% to achieve a similar reduction in total serum testosterone.

 

[Patlamenace]

Thx a lot for your answer ,I did not know I could apply cream on tests,does every type of cream work for it?trying an hybrid approach seems really complicated .getting really tired of trt .made me gain lots of muscle tho the only problem is my penis lol

 

[Patlamenace]

Thx a lot for your answer ,I did not know I could apply cream on tests,does every type of cream work for it?trying an hybrid approach seems really complicated .getting really tired of trt .made me gain lots of muscle tho the only problem is my penis ,big problem tho

 

[Cataceous]

Any good quality testosterone cream should work for scrotal application. Alcohol-based gels are less suitable, as some may find them irritating.

A little complexity in a protocol is worth it if it keeps you feeling good for years to come.

 

[Patlamenace]

I understand what you mean,but it’s so complicated here....I alread to be lucky to have a doc that accepts that I check shbg and free t and e2 ,even tho from what I understand eclia is. Regular non sensitive assay

 

[Patlamenace]

It’s been years since I m struggling with trt and e2 and I know that my penis can work properly since sometimes when I take Adex or change protocol I have nice wood

 

[madman]

It’s been years since I m struggling with trt and e2 and I know that my penis can work properly since sometimes when I take Adex or change protocol I have nice wood

Not surprised as you have been fu**ing around with your protocol (dose/injection frequency) using an extremely long-acting ester which is horrible for trying to get dialed in as it takes too long to reach steady-state let alone giving the body 2-3 months to adapt once blood levels have stabilized.

Messing with the AI does not help either as it is highly doubtful you had given each protocol 2-3 months after blood levels stabilize to gauge how you truly feel overall.

 

[Patlamenace]

I do not have access to an other Esther ,but you are wrong it’s been years since I m on nebido ,i m not saying I never changed the protocol too early but most of the time I did .now that I started lil arimidex(o.003 mg) every 2.5 days night woods are coming back .and erections too ,but i really do not like the mental effect of arimidex

 

[madman]

I do not have access to an other Esther ,but you are wrong it’s been years since I m on nebido ,i m not saying I never changed the protocol too early but most of the time I did .now that I started lil arimidex(o.003 mg) every 2.5 days night woods are coming back .and erections too ,but i really do not like the mental effect of arimidex

I understand you do not have access to another ester and that you have been using Nebido for years but again it takes a long time for blood levels to stabilize when using such ester and even then once stable you would need to stay on that specific dose/injection frequency for 2-3 months to truly gauge how you feel overall.

If you are tweaking your protocol (dose/injection frequency) before you allow your body time to adjust after blood levels stabilize than you are going to just end up chasing your tail indefinitely.

Many also make the mistake after levels stabilize by jumping on an aromatase inhibitor right away at the first sign of trouble before their body even had time to adjust.

 

[Patlamenace]

If I understand what you mean, by taking an ai I prevent the body to stabilise on itself with means that once I stop the ai ,my body once again is going to need time to stabilise.i took those small doses of ai to have erection witjout it they are gone ,difficult to have a healthy couple relation without sex ,and it’s been so long since I m having troubles.

 

[CaptianCurious]

I take undecanoate and think it's massively superior. I skimmed over what you wrote, and just comparing your experience to mine:

- Far too frequent. Undecanoate half-life is 15-35 days depending. T should be dosed at 1/2-1 of the half-life. I get away w/ once every 2 weeks, which happens to be the right amount to throw in an insulin pin.
- You could try lowering your dose 10-20%. A rule of thumb from the regression equations from the studies online is that a dose of C/E will put your AVERAGE T at 8-9x the weekly dose. 100 mg/week for 800-900 total T avg. Will vary greatly each week. Given the higher ester weight of Und, it's probably ~7-8x, which is right were your results are. It'll be easier to see this w/ the longer ester. You're on ~13 mg/day free T, which is an amount rarely achieved by natural adult males. A bit less would put you ~1,000 and might lower E a bit, which could possibly do what you want.
- If this doesn't work then it's probably something else, assuming anything is in fact off. From years of being on these various boards, probably 70% of the postings are people tinkering w/ a single hormone while missing other things wrong (insulin resistance, thyroid, vit D, stress, inadequate electrolyte intake, zinc/iron/copper deficiencies, no sleep, etc.). Just my .02 there.