Nearing 3rd month of TRT and feel like I am backsliding

[cja]

A little back story here. Began TRT in December of 2016 with my PCP. I was on 200mg every 2 weeks, for the first 3 injections (6 weeks), then 200mg once per month. Reddit helped me see this protocol was horrible, and PCP refused to budge. Since the pharmacy kept refilling me with 2 X 200mg 1ml vials I was able to start a 50mg E3.5D protocol. I then sought out Defy, I ran out of my PCP test and got my meds from Defy on my injection day, couldnt have worked out better!

With Defy the protocol is...
70mg Test CYP E3.5D
400ui HCG E3.5D
.22 Anastrozole E3.5D (my sensitive E2 was 40.5 while on the 50mg E3.5D)
25mg DHEA Daily

With this I felt great for about 2 weeks, best I have felt in years! Slowly after I began to lose libido, getting sleepy again, some foggy brain, water retention but also more urinating, sore and at times clicky joints. One day I am sure E2 is high, the next day I am sure it is low. I still have the morning wood, though its not as strong as before. I spoke with someone and they said it is the long acting opiate I take daily, this is why I am no longer feeling like I did those 2 weeks. I know the opiate is the cause of my hypogonadism, but with the TRT these symptoms should vanish, not just come and go as they please. I am 42 years old, a little overweight, but get a full workout while at work. I am set to do labs again Monday morning (Defy Medical), just Test and E2 sensitive, so hopefully there will be some answers in my blood.

Has anyone any knowledge on the TRT with opiates, could the opiates be counter acting my TRT to the point I am experiencing? If so, is there another OTC med/supplement I can take to help keep this in check. I have also read where many people are taking Wellbutrin along with TRT, perhaps this is a option?

Thanks in advance!

 

[CoastWatcher]

A little back story here. Began TRT in December of 2016 with my PCP. I was on 200mg every 2 weeks, for the first 3 injections (6 weeks), then 200mg once per month. Reddit helped me see this protocol was horrible, and PCP refused to budge. Since the pharmacy kept refilling me with 2 X 200mg 1ml vials I was able to start a 50mg E3.5D protocol. I then sought out Defy, I ran out of my PCP test and got my meds from Defy on my injection day, couldnt have worked out better!

With Defy the protocol is...
70mg Test CYP E3.5D
400ui HCG E3.5D
.22 Anastrozole E3.5D (my sensitive E2 was 40.5 while on the 50mg E3.5D)
25mg DHEA Daily

With this I felt great for about 2 weeks, best I have felt in years! Slowly after I began to lose libido, getting sleepy again, some foggy brain, water retention but also more urinating, sore and at times clicky joints. One day I am sure E2 is high, the next day I am sure it is low. I still have the morning wood, though its not as strong as before. I spoke with someone and they said it is the long acting opiate I take daily, this is why I am no longer feeling like I did those 2 weeks. I know the opiate is the cause of my hypogonadism, but with the TRT these symptoms should vanish, not just come and go as they please. I am 42 years old, a little overweight, but get a full workout while at work. I am set to do labs again Monday morning (Defy Medical), just Test and E2 sensitive, so hopefully there will be some answers in my blood.

Has anyone any knowledge on the TRT with opiates, could the opiates be counter acting my TRT to the point I am experiencing? If so, is there another OTC med/supplement I can take to help keep this in check. I have also read where many people are taking Wellbutrin along with TRT, perhaps this is a option?

Thanks in advance!

Absent lab work, which you will be obtaining soon, we're just guessing as to where your levels, testosterone and estradiol, might actually be. You have only been on TRT for a short time, the first weeks, indeed, the first months, of therapy are almost always a period of observation and adjustment.

As far as the opiate you take, it would not be suppressing your testosterone as it did in sending your body into hypogonadism, but opiate use can impact erectile function in a very significant way.

 

[Vince Carter]

Absent the Opiate use you're in a terrible flux this is really the bad period where everything is trying to settle and get straight and you've further mucked things up with the very poor care prior to Defy....this is a thing you have to stick with nice and steady and it takes time, much more than three months, even if you had been on a sane and steady protocol, 3 months is nothing.

 

[cja]

I didnt post labs, as I dont have any from current protocol yet, testing monday for that. So the opiate will not kill off any test from my injections, this is good to know.

I guess what I am asking, since I have a had a 2 week window where I was doing great, this is possible to achieve again? Once T levels and E2 have found their happy places?

As for ED and the opiate, its not that I cant rise to the attention. I just have a huge loss of sensitivity, and really no motivation to even attempt to get into this situation. I dont fap all day either, its that there is no desire at all as of late. Wife is getting frustrated (again) as when I was feeling good I was chasing her around the house like when we first met (married 16 years) lol.


edit...add what labs i do have

the 50mg e3.5d protocol... http://imgur.com/a/EF5fL

PCP labs, what got me on TRT (missing a lot of tests there Doc)... http://imgur.com/a/iybgZ

I know I am in good hands now and this will get dialed in, no complaints there. I am only looking to expand what little knowledge I have concerning my treatment. Thanks

 

[Vince]

I like your protocol of 70mg of T and 400iu of HCG every 3 1/2 days. Your last lab with E2 at 40.5 and T at only 534, does make your E2 look high. My only thought would be, you do feel better with higher E2?

 

[cja]

You know, if I am lower in range right now due to the AI, I feel it is too low. At the higher I was doing better yes, assuming I am lower right now. I did have sensitive nipples, and my face got rather oily throughout the day while at the 40.5 E2. Today my face doesnt get that oily, nor do I have the sensitive nipples. I currently dont have as much brain fog as pre-TRT either. That said, I do get the heavy eyes. At any point in the day my eyes will want to close, and if I let myself I would fall asleep. I have also noticed my wedding ring is extremely tight right now, to the point I had to remove it (was a struggle). This prompted me to hop on the scale, Ive added about 12 pounds. But...I appear to have lost weight though??? My pants are a bit looser, so seeing these 12 pounds really threw me for a loop. I know there is really nothing to say that would be concrete until I get labs drawn on Monday.

Some of what I am feeling point to high E2, while other things point to a low E2, Monday cant come soon enough

 

[Vince]

A lot of the symptoms you're are pointing out, can also be caused by testosterone. I think a lot of nipple sensitivity comes from testosterone and gets blamed on E2. When I first started TRT I did gain weight, I believe was caused by increase hunger. I'm fortunate that I never had to use an AI, and all the headaches that sometimes follows.

 

[cja]

I really didnt want to use this AI either. In fact I have been following your "Daily Injections of Testosterone" thread. I am wondering if this would relieve my need for the AI. When you say these symptoms can be caused by testosterone, this means Test is too high or low? Or the ratio of Test to E is off? I wouldnt say I am eating more, in fact I feel like I am eating less than before. I only hope its a simple protocol adjustment.

edit...wanted to add info

The most recent labs (Defy) was the 50mg E3.5D. I injected this in the glutes, not a shallow injection either. The wife had to inject me, needle was 1.5 inches long. As soon as I switched protocols to the 70mg E3.5D I went to Shallow IM injections, in the shoulders, alternating each shot. Would the injection style/method effect anything, maybe lower E2, or even raise it? Thanks

 

[Vince Carter]

Until you get steady for 6 weeks and start pulling and posting labs you're only stabbing in the dark and the way that you're doing trying to dissect everything and symptoms so soon is just not how this is done, with success anyway. Its going to rough, it'll be bumpy, for awhile but you can't start picking this apart, it'll never work.

 

[johndoesmith]

I really didnt want to use this AI either. In fact I have been following your "Daily Injections of Testosterone" thread. I am wondering if this would relieve my need for the AI. When you say these symptoms can be caused by testosterone, this means Test is too high or low? Or the ratio of Test to E is off? I wouldnt say I am eating more, in fact I feel like I am eating less than before. I only hope its a simple protocol adjustment.

edit...wanted to add info

The most recent labs (Defy) was the 50mg E3.5D. I injected this in the glutes, not a shallow injection either. The wife had to inject me, needle was 1.5 inches long. As soon as I switched protocols to the 70mg E3.5D I went to Shallow IM injections, in the shoulders, alternating each shot. Would the injection style/method effect anything, maybe lower E2, or even raise it? Thanks

You don't need to worry about daily injections, that is way too advanced of a protocol for barely 3 months in.

Keep in mind, anecdotally, I didn't feel ANY major changes until 2.5 months, and that's on a protocol that did not require dialing in. It worked the first time. The whole time during those 2.5 months, I was thinking "is this it?" at every little thing. I was overly sensitive to any changes in my body.

I will tell you that based on the past experience of many men, that you need to remain consistent and get labs done. That's it. No more, no less. Wait for the results, and have them reviewed by Defy. You can post them here if you like.

You'll be fine, man, I haven't heard any gyno concerns from you, and that's really about the only side effect that can be irreversible. Anything else can be fixed with protocol changes.

The injection method isn't going to matter, really, the dose changes are.

 

[Vince]

I really didnt want to use this AI either. In fact I have been following your "Daily Injections of Testosterone" thread. I am wondering if this would relieve my need for the AI. When you say these symptoms can be caused by testosterone, this means Test is too high or low? Or the ratio of Test to E is off? I wouldnt say I am eating more, in fact I feel like I am eating less than before. I only hope its a simple protocol adjustment.

edit...wanted to add info

The most recent labs (Defy) was the 50mg E3.5D. I injected this in the glutes, not a shallow injection either. The wife had to inject me, needle was 1.5 inches long. As soon as I switched protocols to the 70mg E3.5D I went to Shallow IM injections, in the shoulders, alternating each shot. Would the injection style/method effect anything, maybe lower E2, or even raise it? Thanks

I agree with the others, have labs then consider going to daily injections. The really think daily is the best protocol, if you can feel comfortable following it.

 

[madman]

You know, if I am lower in range right now due to the AI, I feel it is too low. At the higher I was doing better yes, assuming I am lower right now. I did have sensitive nipples, and my face got rather oily throughout the day while at the 40.5 E2. Today my face doesnt get that oily, nor do I have the sensitive nipples.

dht not e2 is what stimulates the sebaceous glands to secrete excess oil. Oily skin is genetic. When going on trt some notice an increase in oil production and some do not.

 

[cja]

I appreciate all the replies so far, Thanks!

Yesterday I laid in bed and slept all day, this is what I have done the past 2 weeks on my days off. I am having to urinate often while at home. I mustve went 20 times yesterday, crazy! Also when waking up I am incredibly sore, though it isnt a good burning sore that I worked out muscles. Its more in the areas where my arms and legs meet the torso. Any part that moves, the soreness is at this location. This may be from laying around all day, idk. Either way I shouldnt be laid up in bed sleeping all day. I go do my labs this morning, and cant wait for the results. I feel like a little kid waiting for Christmas to arrive. Somethings got to give, this feeling seems to get worse and worse every week. I am seriously considering not taking the AI at todays injection. My E2 was high before, and this is not what I felt like.