Am I primary?

[nurselyfe]

Been on TRT without hCG for 3.5 years, prior to TRT I was not primary or secondary. Just recently added it in at 1000iu E3.5D IM as prescribed by my doc. It's brand name hCG; Novarel. I've kept it in the fridge and everything. It's been over three weeks and I have not seen a difference yet. Did TRT cause me to be primary hypogonadic? Only thing I've ever used besides T is low dose masteron. Possibility of varicocele here?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Been on TRT without hCG for 3.5 years, prior to TRT I was not primary or secondary. Just recently added it in at 1000iu E3.5D IM as prescribed by my doc. It's brand name hCG; Novarel. I've kept it in the fridge and everything. It's been over three weeks and I have not seen a difference yet. Did TRT cause me to be primary hypogonadic? Only thing I've ever used besides T is low dose masteron. Possibility of varicocele here?

I dint understand what you are talking about. If someone is dealing with primary hypogonadism, the issue is with the testicles. In secondary hypogonadism the problem is in the pituitary. The way to differentiate one from the other is through LH and FSH values prior to the start of TRT. What were those numbers were they elevated, significantly? If so, it is a case of primary hypogonadism. If they were at the low end of the reference range you are - more than likely - dealing with secondary hypogonadism.

Why are you on TRT if, as you write, you were "not primary or secondary?" What does HCG have to do with any of this?

 

[ZoomyR6]

Blood work???

 

[nurselyfe]

I dint understand what you are talking about. If someone is dealing with primary hypogonadism, the issue is with the testicles. In secondary hypogonadism the problem is in the pituitary. The way to differentiate one from the other is through LH and FSH values prior to the start of TRT. What were those numbers were they elevated, significantly? If so, it is a case of primary hypogonadism. If they were at the low end of the reference range you are - more than likely - dealing with secondary hypogonadism.

Why are you on TRT if, as you write, you were "not primary or secondary?" What does HCG have to do with any of this?

I did a cycle in my early 20's. After that I decided to stay on self admin. TRT 120mg a week. Started seeing a doctor and told him I'd like to come off in the near future. He prescribed me hCG as part of my protocol for now then eventually stop the T injections and add clomid. Hope that answers your question.

So HCG has a lot to do with this. I'm not seeing any results in terms of size/firmness or hang.

 

[CoastWatcher]

I did a cycle in my early 20's. After that I decided to stay on self admin. TRT 120mg a week. Started seeing a doctor and told him I'd like to come off in the near future. He prescribed me hCG as part of my protocol for now then eventually stop the T injections and add clomid. Hope that answers your question.

So HCG has a lot to do with this. I'm not seeing any results in terms of size/firmness or hang.

How long on hcg? When did you add it?

 

[nurselyfe]

How long on hcg? When did you add it?

I started hCG July 24th from the compounding pharmacy. It came already reconstituted. I was skeptical. Used about 5000IU of it, 500IU x2 weekly. Saw no difference.

Speculated that the hCG quality was low and asked my doctor to prescribe it to me from my local CVS. I received Novarel 10,000 IU. Using it almost 3 weeks now. I've used a total of 6000IU. Thought I saw a little difference in firmness in the first two weeks, which could have definitely been placebo. Now nothing. No increased firmness or size or increased ejaculate volume.

 

[Vince Carter]

Its entirely possible though that you've been shutdown and reached a state of atrophy that isn't recoverable, no matter how much hcg, clomid, or anything else. And CW is right up there with his post, most of what you're saying makes no sense at all about primary and secondary.

 

[nurselyfe]

Its entirely possible though that you've been shutdown and reached a state of atrophy that isn't recoverable, no matter how much hcg, clomid, or anything else. And CW is right up there with his post, most of what you're saying makes no sense at all about primary and secondary.

All I was trying to say was that I had no issues with my testes prior to testosterone administration. I had fully functional nuts. Now my testes aren't responding to hcg would mean I am primary ... correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Henry]

I'm just guessing but what is seems like is that you were not primary or secondary......you didn't have hypogonadism. You were healthy. You ran a steroid cycle in your 20's and stayed on at 120mg's.....you were cruising. Now you saw a doctor and want to come off. He prescribed HCG. You're not responding to the HCG and you're wondering if you're primary or secondary.

How long was your cruise? Did you start in your early 20's and now you're in your early 30's? If you've been cruising long enough, you might have just caused self induced hypogonadism.

 

[nurselyfe]

I'm just guessing but what is seems like is that you were not primary or secondary......you didn't have hypogonadism. You were healthy. You ran a steroid cycle in your 20's and stayed on at 120mg's.....you were cruising. Now you saw a doctor and want to come off. He prescribed HCG. You're not responding to the HCG and you're wondering if you're primary or secondary.

How long was your cruise? Did you start in your early 20's and now you're in your early 30's? If you've been cruising long enough, you might have just caused self induced hypogonadism.

Yes, Henry. I started when I was 20, ran a 25 week 500mg cycle. Came off for 6 weeks, definitely recovered some ball size in that time period. But self administered 120mg after that for the next 3 years. I'm turning 24 in a couple days. It's just weird to me because I've seen people on without hcg much much longer than me and immediately respond to it.

 

[Vettester Chris]

As Vince Carter noted, you may have gone too long to where leydig cells are no longer receptive to the LH analog. So in that sense, yeah, you could technically say you're "primary", but it is more of a self induced situation, whereas the cycle shut your HPTA down, that in turn would shut the testes down. The two work in a symbiotic fashion through a negative feedback loop with each other. I don't know the details with your clomid or other compounds, or the timing and protocol, but yeah, I'm a believer that there is a 'window' to get these things back on track. Kind of a use it or lose it scenario.

Same with the HPT axis ... I believe it will only stay suppressed for so long before it won't be able to sustain GNrH production. I've seen and read enough threads from some of the other AAS related boards in the past, to know this is true, and many men find themselves on lifetime TRT, because they waited to long for PCT, and/or they did it incorrectly.

 

[nurselyfe]

As Vince Carter noted, you may have gone too long to where leydig cells are no longer receptive to the LH analog. So in that sense, yeah, you could technically say you're "primary", but it is more of a self induced situation, whereas the cycle shut your HPTA down, that in turn would shut the testes down. The two work in a symbiotic fashion through a negative feedback loop with each other. I don't know the details with your clomid or other compounds, or the timing and protocol, but yeah, I'm a believer that there is a 'window' to get these things back on track. Kind of a use it or lose it scenario.

Same with the HPT axis ... I believe it will only stay suppressed for so long before it won't be able to sustain GNrH production. I've seen and read enough threads from some of the other AAS related boards in the past, to know this is true, and many men find themselves on lifetime TRT, because they waited to long for PCT, and/or they did it incorrectly.

How would this explain the numerous men I've seen that have been on TRT for 5+ and just start hCG and respond perfectly fine to it? Saw one guy didn't use it for 20 years, started using it in his 60's and it worked great.

I agree with the second paragraph though, it's a lot more tough for he HPA to come back online after long term suppression.

Edit: Link to see a guy on for 8 years and responding within 2 weeks to hCG.
https://forums.t-nation.com/t/on-trt-8-years-testicular-atrophy-hcg/174870/14

 

[Vince Carter]

How would this explain the numerous men I've seen that have been on TRT for 5+ and just start hCG and respond perfectly fine to it? Saw one guy didn't use it for 20 years, started using it in his 60's and it worked great.

I agree with the second paragraph though, it's a lot more tough for he HPA to come back online after long term suppression.

Edit: Link to see a guy on for 8 years and responding within 2 weeks to hCG.
https://forums.t-nation.com/t/on-trt-8-years-testicular-atrophy-hcg/174870/14

It's entirely possible that your one of a growing population that HCG is not working for them. I'm one, quite a few guys on EM would state that it does nothing and might as well be water alone that they're injecting. Besides my nuts are shrunken and shriveled, that outward cosmetic appearance, HCG does nothing at all for me. You may find yourself as falling in to that group.

 

[nurselyfe]

It's entirely possible that your one of a growing population that HCG is not working for them. I'm one, quite a few guys on EM would state that it does nothing and might as well be water alone that they're injecting. Besides my nuts are shrunken and shriveled, that outward cosmetic appearance, HCG does nothing at all for me. You may find yourself as falling in to that group.

Vince, HCG has never done anything for you? Like you've used it from the get-go of your TRT protocol with no cosmetic effect?

Nelson posted a study that showed some men do have HCG antibodies.

 

[Vince Carter]

Sorry I have to edit that and say that my nuts are NOT shrunken and shriveled, but besides that I feel nothing with it's use and I've done it with HCG from 250iu EOD, 500 3xW, 400 EOD, 100 daily...makes no difference to how I "feel".

 

[madman]

I am 9 months on trt and am injecting 75mg every 3.5 days and have never used hcg. My testes were a descent size before trt and I have not noticed much shrinkage if any and mine hang. Some will notice shrinkage to some degree and some will not as the leydig cells only make up 10-20% of the testicular mass and extreme shrinkage would be more common in abuse of supra-physiological doses of testosterone/aas. As VC states many feel no benefit from hcg regarding its supposed contribution to various hormonal pathways and if anything its main benefit which is well documented would be an increase in testicular size/fullness(preventing the leydig cells from dormancy).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2936313/
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/277141

 

[at15]

How would this explain the numerous men I've seen that have been on TRT for 5+ and just start hCG and respond perfectly fine to it? Saw one guy didn't use it for 20 years, started using it in his 60's and it worked great.

I agree with the second paragraph though, it's a lot more tough for he HPA to come back online after long term suppression.

Edit: Link to see a guy on for 8 years and responding within 2 weeks to hCG.
https://forums.t-nation.com/t/on-trt-8-years-testicular-atrophy-hcg/174870/14

100% agree with you man this is ****in scary if you can run one cycle and cruise for 3 years HCG wont work anymore?! Also a little bro science theory, but maybe because you were so young at 20 years old for that 500mg cycle maybe things were more fragile down there and some kind of permanent damage took place. But overall this just doesnt seem right. I would at least try a different brand.

 

[nurselyfe]

100% agree with you man this is ****in scary if you can run one cycle and cruise for 3 years HCG wont work anymore?! Also a little bro science theory, but maybe because you were so young at 20 years old for that 500mg cycle maybe things were more fragile down there and some kind of permanent damage took place. But overall this just doesnt seem right. I would at least try a different brand.

After my first cycle of 500mg, when I came off with just Nolva and Clomid that probably wasn't even that good of quality, I saw immediate regrowth and firmness of my testes. Had decent libido and still had decent workouts.

This doesn't seem right to me at all. The amount of guys I've seen start HCG late in their TRT careers and get a response to it makes me think something else is going on. My balls hang they just wont grow. Looking into seeing an Uro. Possibility of some kind of blockage?

 

[nurselyfe]

Sorry I have to edit that and say that my nuts are NOT shrunken and shriveled, but besides that I feel nothing with it's use and I've done it with HCG from 250iu EOD, 500 3xW, 400 EOD, 100 daily...makes no difference to how I "feel".

You see no size increase or firmness with HCG?