My experience. Now what ?? Any advice welcome.

[Anabaptist]

All:

I am new to this site. A couple years ago I was losing my strength and was having trouble working. I was diagnosed as primary hypo by a GP with a t level of 240, and put on shots. I was on 200MG/2 weeks and it was a roller coaster experience. I would crash 1/2 wk before next shot, then take 1/2 wk to return back to normal. When I complained to my Dr he agreed to do shots at 1,5 wks. Life was great after that. Quiet going to the chiropractor. After about 6 months of this bliss my hematocrit went up to 55 and my blood pressure starting spiking high, like 180/95, etc, I started switching doctors.

Since I was in Germany in the 80's (chernoble, mad cow disease) I am unable to donate blood. I was unable to find a dr who would prescribe phlebotomy.

Eventually I went off of T cypionate. They wanted to prescribe creams, but I didn't want to do that. After 3 wks off shots, my T level was 50, and a month later it was 150. After I was off T for 90 days Dr # 13 came through with 50mg clomaphine citrate. At 4 wks on this 50mg/day dosage, my total T level had risen to 415 and my estradiol was 26.2. I am scheduled to return after another 2 months to see where everything is at. Can anyone answer the following questions ? If I take a higher dosage of CLomaphine Citrate will this result in a higher T level for me ?? With my estradiol at 26.2, what would an aromatase inhibiter do for me? At least at the current level I can function and get through the day, but I don't feel as good as when my level was 650. I am back to going to the chiropractor every 4-6 wks.

When I went off T, morning erections and that stretchy feeling in my back disappeared. It's back with Clomid, but not as intense. Also I don't have the sex drive that I did on the shots.
Do some people on clomed also supplement with injections ? Any advice or direction is appreciated.

I was also disgnosed with Sleep Apnia. I have a very large tongue, backwardly oriented. The backside of it protrudes into my throat. The first machine they sold me, I am intolerant of. It fills my stomach full of air. Not willing to try another one at this time. I am sleeping with a chin strap.

Anabaptist

 

[CoastWatcher]

Welcome to Excelmale - you certainly have been around the block in regard to the treatment you received. Are you now living in the States? If so, I would urge you to consider consulting Defy Medical (I have spoken to them, but am not a patient). They practice at the cutting edge of contemporary androgen replacement p and use a unique telemedicine model. Many of our members are treated by them. They would certainly prescribe a phlebotomy if one is indicated (a routine practice for men with elevated values).

As as to an AI, I would avoid one. Your values are nowhere near the point that one should be introduced.

 

[Vince]

Anabaptist Welcome, here's a good post on Clomophine Citrate https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...rease-Testosterone-Fertility-and-Sperm-Volume

 

[Anabaptist]

I've been on 50mg clomed daily for about 4 months. I have recent blood work by 2 diff. doctors from 6:00 am and 4:30 pm. The morning test showed Total Testosterone 542 vs. 325 when taken at 4:30. Morning LH was 6.6 in a range of 1-9. SHBG was 23 and prolactin was 7.8. Evening estradiol was 21.6 and TSH was 3.33 I am feeling okay, very normal, better than I have felt since going off of the T shots. Everything else is in passing range. Should I stay where I'm at or try to adjust my treatment? I would like to have a little more of the feeling that I had when on the shots. I was a lot stronger with a better sex drive. Been reading a lot of good about HCG. Would a little of that along with Clomed help me? The doc that put me on Clomed only has one other patient on it. When I asked if he would increase my dosage and redo blood work, he advised me to see a urologist. There is another doctor in my area that writes lots of Clomid and possibly hcg scripts, but I am just now starting to jump through his hoops. Sounds like if you take HCG shots you don't need clomed because clomed causes your body to secrete more LH, and the HCG replaces the LH and you are controlling how much you get. Thanks you for your comments.

 

[CoastWatcher]

How many doctors are you consulting? You wrote that bloodwork had been ordered by two different doctors; are you seeing both of them to manage your hormonal issues? I ask because it becomes, or can become a real challenge to manage these challenges without a doctor you trust. Where are you living?

 

[Anabaptist]

Anabaptist returns. 3-11-16

I live in the boonies outside of the Louisville, KY metropolis. (Indiana side) I've been on clomiphene citrate 50Mg a day for about 8 months. My bloodwork is about the same as what I reported above. I've been reading about hcg monotherapy or with a small amount of testosterone to boost free T.. Is there any reason why I couldn't add a small amount of testosterone to my Clomiphene script to get my levels back above 600 ?? Recently my L.H. number is down to a 5 and my latest morning T total was in the low 400's. I want to get my protocol modified. Currently got initial appointments with 2-3 doctors in the area who the pharmacists say prescribe HcG. One is an anti-age clinic. I guess I'll go with whichever one is cheaper. I've been going to the chiropractor 1-2 times a month and if I do exercise much I'll get sore for several days. So my core strength is down from when I was on the T shots. Still have very low sex drive, and soft morning erections. I've also been reading some about sermorelin. My latest lab work, my doctor said my L.H. number wasn't very high, and he was wondering if I even needed the Clomiphene citrate. He wanted to cut my dose in half for 3 months and then re-test. I told him I didn't want to do that. This was all relayed back and forth through the nurse. This advice from him makes no sense to me. What do you think I should do going forward from this point ?? Just a note, my hematocrit is back up to 49, and my blood pressure has been up recently as well. I guess I should go on B.P medication ?? Thanks in advance for your good advice.

 

[ERO]

You never mix Clomid and Test as they work in opposite ways. Clomid helps your body produce more Test by itself, while extraneous Test effectively shuts-down your body's natural production. You will end up with lower levels than you have now by mixing.

What you need is a cutting-edge TRT doc instead of what you have now. Defy Medical is just a phone call away - no need to see them in person.

 

[CoastWatcher]

What you are contemplating makes no sense. Clomid is, hopefully, working to produce natural testosterone; when you introduce exogenous testosterone, your natural production of the hormone stops. Your body doesn't know which way to go. ERO is right, it's time for you to get proper medical care.

 

[Vettester Chris]

All:

. I was diagnosed as primary hypo by a GP

If you're diagnosed "Primary", why are you taking Clomid?? Clomid is an option to increase LH, which will promote endogenous test production ... But wait, you were diagnosed "Primary", which would mean you already have increased LH, but your testicles are unable to produce adequate testosterone? On the flip side, you noted a 240ng/dl baseline serum, which tells me you are indeed producing "some" natural test; not optimal by any means, but enough to counter check the primary diagnosis.

IMO, your protocol has been all over the place, when actually you probably just needed a little less testosterone cypionate, and you needed to split it up 2x per week. If you're seeing any results from Clomid, then it's pretty difficult to state a "primary" diagnosis. Maybe partial primary at best. Baseline LH & FSH labs would be helpful.

 

[CoastWatcher]

If you're diagnosed "Primary", why are you taking Clomid?? Clomid is an option to increase LH, which will promote endogenous test production ... But wait, you were diagnosed "Primary", which would mean you already have increased LH, but your testicles are unable to produce adequate testosterone? On the flip side, you noted a 240ng/dl baseline serum, which tells me you are indeed producing "some" natural test; not optimal by any means, but enough to counter check the primary diagnosis.

IMO, your protocol has been all over the place, when actually you probably just needed a little less testosterone cypionate, and you needed to split it up 2x per week. If you're seeing any results from Clomid, then it's pretty difficult to state a "primary" diagnosis. Maybe partial primary at best. Baseline LH & FSH labs would be helpful.

Chris referred to your protocol as being "all over the place", and he's right. Restating the obvious, you need a doctor who can work with you to sort out this puzzle.

 

[Vettester Chris]

Also, the chiropractor was mentioned. Not sure where or how that plays into the HRT program? Not bashing by any means, please don't read into the questions and comments, I'm just trying to sort it all out and ascertain your situation. As you stated, your hemo went up (as did BP), but you couldn't deposit any blood because of being in Europe. IMO, I think some of the issues you're having are already answered by yourself ... Possibly, find a method to donate and get your CBC's in order, then reinstate a solid TRT program, including 2x week injections, HCG, AI (if needed), and address DHEA, thyroid, diet, exercise, vitamins, and anything else that will get you into the zone!!

 

[DLK]

Anabaptist, You should get with a TRT specialist, I know a lot of us push Defy but that's because we've already tried the route your on now. They will give you a phlebotomy script which will help your hematocrit problem and set you up on the proper protocol. I've been impressed with their service, you may think since everything is over the phone it may not be as thorough but you will actually spend up to an hour talking directly to the doc.

 

[Anabaptist]

Thanks for all the comments. The original diagnosis was innaccurate .After months of searching I found a doc in Louisville who prescribes HCG , etc. I just stopped Clomid, 50MG daily, and started 1000 iu of hcg 3 times a week. I was on Clomid for 9 months. I want to know if I will have a higher natural T level with the HCG. I wanted to start with just HCG at first to see what that will do for me. Most of his patients also take injectable testosterone with it. He wants to do blood work in two months to see where everything is at. Nelson, thanks for the birthday wish. I'm addressing the blood pressure with a specialist. The statement about not taking both Clomid and Testosterone Cyp. at the same time doesn't make sense to me. There are many weight lifting forums where people comment that they take clomid so their testicles don't shrink up while they are doing the testosterone. Also HCG and Testosterone are also both prescribed at the same time. When my testosterone levels are low I lose core strenght and my spine will tend to subluxate. When my T levels are higher, I don't run to the chiropracter as much. I suppose if after 3-4 months of HCG I don't feel better than I do now, I may go back on bi-weekly t shots, not quiet as high a dose as earlier.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Thanks for all the comments. The original diagnosis was innaccurate .After months of searching I found a doc in Louisville who prescribes HCG , etc. I just stopped Clomid, 50MG daily, and started 1000 iu of hcg 3 times a week. I was on Clomid for 9 months. I want to know if I will have a higher natural T level with the HCG. I wanted to start with just HCG at first to see what that will do for me. Most of his patients also take injectable testosterone with it. He wants to do blood work in two months to see where everything is at. Nelson, thanks for the birthday wish. I'm addressing the blood pressure with a specialist. The statement about not taking both Clomid and Testosterone Cyp. at the same time doesn't make sense to me. There are many weight lifting forums where people comment that they take clomid so their testicles don't shrink up while they are doing the testosterone. Also HCG and Testosterone are also both prescribed at the same time. When my testosterone levels are low I lose core strenght and my spine will tend to subluxate. When my T levels are higher, I don't run to the chiropracter as much. I suppose if after 3-4 months of HCG I don't feel better than I do now, I may go back on bi-weekly t shots, not quiet as high a dose as earlier.

Do you have baseline labs that your new doctor ordered before this protocol change? HCH mono-therapy, as I understand it?

 

[ERO]

Good news on finding a new doc!

To clear-up the confusion on Clomid & Test: Bodybuilders use Clomid as part of post cycle therapy - or in plain English, they use it after they go off the AAS (steroid) cycle to help get their bodies to start producing Test again after being shut down from the steroids. Nobody uses Clomid and Test at the same time, or at least they don't if they have any idea of what they are doing.

It make sense when you think about how they both work in your body: Exogenous Test causes your system to stop producing Test on it own. Your body "sees" the Test in your blood stream and stops production it on its own because the Test levels are high and your body no longer needs to make any. Clomid is the exact opposite - it causes your body to try to produce Test again on its own - so how do you think taking them both at the same time is going to work? They work in exactly opposite ways. It is roughly like taking a stimulant and a sedative at the same time - a 20oz coffee and a sleeping pill, for example.

 

[Jackie Treehorn]

The statement about not taking both Clomid and Testosterone Cyp. at the same time doesn't make sense to me.

The fact that you made this statement tells me that you don't have a good grasp on basic TRT knowledge.

ERO and Coastwatcher already explained that Clomid helps your body produce its own testosterone. It is used quite a bit for younger guys that want to attempt a "restart" protocol. Sometimes they are successful with the restart, and their own body starts making enough testosterone for the patient to feel good again. At that time, it wouldn't make any sense to start testosterone injections, because it will just shut down the body's ability to produce. It has the opposite effect...get it?

There are many weight lifting forums where people comment that they take clomid so their testicles don't shrink up while they are doing the testosterone. Also HCG and Testosterone are also both prescribed at the same time. When my testosterone levels are low I lose core strenght and my spine will tend to subluxate. When my T levels are higher, I don't run to the chiropracter as much. I suppose if after 3-4 months of HCG I don't feel better than I do now, I may go back on bi-weekly t shots, not quiet as high a dose as earlier.

My friend, you need a doctor that knows what he is doing. Do yourself a huge favor, and call Defy Medical. They can help you sort out this mess of a protocol you've been on, and get you feeling good again. If anybody ever needed their services, it's you.

 

[Anabaptist]

Are we there yet ??

Sorry for the long silence on my part. I wanted to wait till I had something worth posting. I went with a local anti-aging doctor who's fairly new & flexible. Please see attachment. First 2 sheets are a few months back, me on Testosterone Enanthate and second two are me presently on Testosterone Cypionate. I went off the Enanthate due to injection reaction either from the Chlorobutanol or the sesame or grape seed oil ( I tried both). The Cyp has benzyl alcohol and benzyl benzoate in cottonseed, and I have no problem with it.

I wrote my medications at the top of the page. I would like your opinion as to what needs tweaked from here. Or perhaps, I'm almost there ?? My estradiol is a little low, so do I even need I mg anastrazole per week ? This round, for the first time he tested dihydrotestosterone and estrone. As you can see, my DHT is a little above the maximum. He gave me a script for finasteride and want the DHT to be mid range. I don't think I should take the Finasteride. He also measured estrone, and wants that to be lower and my estradiol to be higher. So he wants me to just take half a mg of anastrazole per week instead of 1mg and to start taking estro-dim. Is there any value in monitoring estrone ?? Don't really want to take estro-dim.

So please comment. Really, these results are the best that I have ever had. I am sharing this for entertainment purposes and your comments are not medical advice. I have 3 months of services remaining with this doctor.

Does anyone know where in this world a person can get injectable Testosterone Enanthate without Chlorobutanol preferably in cottonseed oil ? Thanks in advance for your comments. I haven't read Nelsons latest incarnation of his book, so my understanding is likely "out of date".

 

[johnt]

I have not heard or read anything positive about Finasteride.

 

[Vince]

Warning do not take finasteride, if a doctor wrote me a script for that, I would find a new doctor.
WARNING: Propecia (finasteride) or Proscar can cause erection issues.
https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...eride%29-or-Proscar-can-cause-erection-issues

 

[Anabaptist]

Thanks for the comments. I realize my current doctor is likely another lemon. I still got 3 months left of his paid services. But the latest blood work, other than adjusting the estradiol up or down a little bit with an AI is reasonable ?? I'm injecting 40MG T cyp EOD with a 29 gauge insulin syringe and 200 i.u. EOD of HCG beside the stomach. Total T is around 740, estradiol is 7.1 on 1 mg AI per week. SHBG is 15.8 DHT is slightly high at 104. I could perhaps ditch the AI ? I'm 6 foot about 185 pounds.
I had lab corp blood work showing Hematocrit at 50.6, 2 weeks old. 3 months ago that was good enough for the local hospital to phlebotomize. This time they said had to do their own blood work the same day. Although RBC and Hemaglobin were similar to lab corps numbers, my Hematocrit was 47.5, so they didn't remove any blood. ( the orders were based on Hematocrit number) Ever hear of anything like that happenning ? The fluctuation in the result?