My Current Labs & Dosage of Treatement

[T-dog]

Decided to go ahead and post my labs and tell you my treatment as a reference for the "collective knowledge". These were taken after 7 months of Androgel, and I didn't use the gel the morning of or the day before these tests.

My DHEA is high (I don't take any supplements for this) Estrogen is super-low (have no idea why).

Some symptoms I've experienced have been low sex-performance abilities, low libido, sleepiness during the day, inability to sleep at night, very hard if not impossible to either put on muscle or lose fat (this one super-pisses me off). Curious as to what role low Estrogen or higher DHEA would play in any of this?

Personal stats: 39 years old, healthy in every other way, don't take any medication outside vitamins, labs taken at 195 lbs & 14% bodyfat, been working out for two solid years (first year P90X, second year weights) 6-7 days a week, healthy diet with around 3000 calories a day including 214 grams of protein.

Doctor has me on 160 mg of Cypionate once a week, and a shot of 500iu HCG the two days before the Cypionate injection (so 1000iu each week).

5th Cypionate shot will be this Saturday. Can't say I'm reallllly noticing a difference yet, but I'm keeping hope alive.

Comments/insight welcome

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Your lab results are generally good with the exception of low T. You were taking a low suboptimal dose of testosterone gel since you still show LH and FSH. Your estradiol was also undetectable (not a good thing).

Your values should improve. Please post your upcoming follow up tests to see what happens.

 

[T-dog]

Thank you SO much for responding. I will definitely post my 12 week results when I take them.

Great to hear my LH and FSH should improve, I look forward to seeing what changes that...and hopefully more estrogen...will make in my quality of life.

for anyone reading -
LH 2.2 mIU/mL (range 1.7-8.6)
Testosterone 196 ng/dL (range 348-1197)
Free Testosterone 4.4 pg/mL (range 8.7-25.1)
Estradiol <6.0 pg/mL (range 7.6-42.6)

 

[Cooper]

T- Dog - What was the amount of Androgel that you we taking?

Nelson - his LH and FSH should actually go lower once he is tested again after being on the shots for several weeks correct?

 

[T-dog]

T- Dog - What was the amount of Androgel that you we taking?

Nelson - his LH and FSH should actually go lower once he is tested again after being on the shots for several weeks correct?

I did three months at two pumps a day, so 40.5mg...then did the remaining months at three pumps a day, so 60.75mg.

Why should my LH go lower, and what effect does that normally have?

 

[Hydranted]

I did three months at two pumps a day, so 40.5mg...then did the remaining months at three pumps a day, so 60.75mg.

Why should my LH go lower, and what effect does that normally have?

When using exogenous testosterone, LH and FSH values will drop to nearly undetectable levels. This is because exogenous T disrupts your HPTA and shuts down your body's natural production of these hormones. It's an expected effect of TRT.

The most noticeable side effect of this is testicular atrophy. Since your pituitary gland stops sending LH and FSH to your testicles, they will stop functioning properly and begin to atrophy. This is one of the many reasons that many men on TRT use hCG along with their testosterone. HCG is an LH mimick, so it prevents testicular atrophy and keeps the testes functioning normally. It also allows the patient to remain fertile.

 

[T-dog]

When using exogenous testosterone, LH and FSH values will drop to nearly undetectable levels. This is because exogenous T disrupts your HPTA and shuts down your body's natural production of these hormones. It's an expected effect of TRT.

The most noticeable side effect of this is testicular atrophy. Since your pituitary gland stops sending LH and FSH to your testicles, they will stop functioning properly and begin to atrophy. This is one of the many reasons that many men on TRT use hCG along with their testosterone. HCG is an LH mimick, so it prevents testicular atrophy and keeps the testes functioning normally. It also allows the patient to remain fertile.

Thanks for explaining that. I was thinking since I've been on the Androgel (as ineffective as it seemed to be) hopefully those levels are already as low as they will be. I'm already on 1,000 iu of HCG a week...so hopefully I will see LH levels rise now instead of go down even further like Cooper said?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

T-dog
If you still detect LH and FSH on TRT, your T dose is too low. As simple as that!

 

[Hydranted]

Thanks for explaining that. I was thinking since I've been on the Androgel (as ineffective as it seemed to be) hopefully those levels are already as low as they will be. I'm already on 1,000 iu of HCG a week...so hopefully I will see LH levels rise now instead of go down even further like Cooper said?

You won't see your LH value rise with hCG. Think of hCG as a way to trick your testicles into thinking that your pituitary gland is producing the hormone. Your LH value won't rise, but your testicles will be fooled into staying functional.

 

[T-dog]

Okay, Nelson...now it clicked. If you still detect LH and FSH, your dose is too low. Thus, because I still had the reading, the Androgel obviously wasn't working. Not just by how I felt, but by the numbers and the blood work. Seems so simple now.

Hydranted, I swear I read at least a little about this stuff every day, but I guess I still have a lot to learn. I hate to keep coming off so ignorant, but does low LH and FSH have anything to do with low sex drive or sexual sensitivity? I'm having some serious trouble finding out what kind of "feelings" change with regards to lower or higher LH.

 

[Hydranted]

Okay, Nelson...now it clicked. If you still detect LH and FSH, your dose is too low. Thus, because I still had the reading, the Androgel obviously wasn't working. Not just by how I felt, but by the numbers and the blood work. Seems so simple now.

Hydranted, I swear I read at least a little about this stuff every day, but I guess I still have a lot to learn. I hate to keep coming off so ignorant, but does low LH and FSH have anything to do with low sex drive or sexual sensitivity? I'm having some serious trouble finding out what kind of "feelings" change with regards to lower or higher LH.

In men who aren't on TRT, yes, low LH and FSH lead to naturally low hormone levels...which in turn leads to low sex drive and sexual dysfunction.

In men who are on TRT, LH and FSH values don't need to be monitored once treatment has begun, as its expected that LH and FSH values will be essentially zero. If TRT is being effectively administered, there is nothing to be gained by testing for LH and FSH. Their production will be shut down by the exogenous testosterone.

 

[T-dog]

In men who aren't on TRT, yes, low LH and FSH lead to naturally low hormone levels...which in turn leads to low sex drive and sexual dysfunction.

In men who are on TRT, LH and FSH values don't need to be monitored once treatment has begun, as its expected that LH and FSH values will be essentially zero. If TRT is being effectively administered, there is nothing to be gained by testing for LH and FSH. Their production will be shut down by the exogenous testosterone.

Thank you for the education, and hopefully it wasn't too painful to put up with all my questions. I'm definitely a little better informed now than I was yesterday.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Cooper

Yes, I completely skipped the part about his doc putting him back on TRT. His LH and FSH should go down to zero.

T-dog, don't let that upset you. Gladly, we are finding out that fertility and testicular function can be maintained by using HCG plus TRT even in the absence of FSH.

 

[T-dog]

UPDATE

Got my first labs back 77 days after starting injections (original labs on Androgel are on the first post of this thread)

Summary:
* Dosage of 500 IU HCG Thursdays SubQ, 500 IU HCG Fridays SubQ, 160mg Test Cyp Saturdays IM in leg
* Naturally High DHEA because I'm not supplementing with this at all
* Estrogen went from undetectable to high using the sensitive test. Not experiencing any negative side affects as far as I can tell
* Testosterone has risen, Free Test is high

I thought low Estrogen was responsible for what I was experiencing in the way of low sex drive, sleeping problems, and inability to gain muscle or lose fat.

But now it's "high" and I still don't have much of a libido, don't get Morning Wood (I do get an erection once every couple weeks in the middle of the night now, it's almost an alien feeling it's been so long I don't remember what that is like) and can't remember a night I've slept through.

I have lost some body fat and am more vascular in the forearms for sure.

I'm meeting with the doctor tomorrow to discuss. I'm worried he's going to say my levels are fine. I would have sworn before the labs came back that I must not be getting enough test, but after seeing the numbers I feel like I have to defend the amount I'm currently getting.

In essence, I'm not experiencing any negative side effects but I'm not yet feeling better like I read other people experience on TRT.