Issues with Testosterone Cream -- anyone else?

[readyforchange]

I've been on a number of TRT protocols over the past 3 years. Injections most of the time. However, about 6-8 months ago, I got caught up in the "cream craze" and decided to give it a shot. A few things I've noticed:

1. Even at almost identical T levels (free and total), I feel worse on cream (brain fog, almost a weird "lack of feeling")

2. My sleep is HORRIBLE when on cream.

3. I don't absorb it well (basing this off the fact that my doc said he has NEVER had anyone on more than 3 clicks am and pm -- and I'm at 4 to get similar levels to where I felt good while doing injections).

4. I DO feel more "consistent" on cream -- but it's not just a good consistent -- as in, there seems to be less ups and downs, but overall I don't feel as good.

5. Erection quality is much better/consistent on cream... but the tradeoff is the above.

Does anyone have a similar experience where they switched and had issues? Is there any evidence to back up that some people might not respond well to cream, and why?

 

[Vince]

It seems like a lot of members and now using testicle cream.

Injection + cream makes the most sense

 

[Gman86]

Where are you applying the cream? How many mg's are in each click, 50? You say erections are better, any improvement with libido?

 

[DragonBits]

When I use a cream, I put it on then apply DMSO which aids in absorbation.

I have no idea how much more effective this is.

 

[readyforchange]

Where are you applying the cream? How many mg's are in each click, 50? You say erections are better, any improvement with libido?

I apply 4 clicks in the am (200 mg) and 3 clicks in the pm (150mg) to a clean, dry, shaven scrotum. Overall, libido about the same as when I felt good on injections.

 

[S1W]

I hear you loud and clear. I had most of those issues and more, except that my erectile function was far worse on creams compared to injections, acne was way worse, felt way less consistent (I definitely felt the ups and downs), and just generally speaking, I thought applying/dealing with the cream was a total PITA.

I'd rather inject daily than apply cream daily from a convenience standpoint alone.

 

[readyforchange]

It seems like a lot of members and now using testicle cream.

Injection + cream makes the most sense

The main reason I'm suspect of the cream is that the docs who are the biggest proponents of it seem to think it's the "only way"... that is a red flag for me, because it overlooks the uniqueness of each individual.

The main reason I switched from injections is that I don't want to do daily injections (2x week is ZERO hassle to me, but every time I go more than that, I don't like how often I'm sticking myself). From reading too much, I got it in my head that the "ups and downs" of 2x week injections would lead to these huge peaks and valleys... and even though I wasn't feeling that, I convinced myself it was an issue because other people were/are saying it is.

But when you look on here, there are guys doing great on 1x, 2x, EOD, and daily injections... so at this point, I'm thinking there is no "best" way to do this, but whichever of the above options that fit best with the individual is optimal.

 

[readyforchange]

I hear you loud and clear. I had most of those issues and more, except that my erectile function was far worse on creams compared to injections, acne was way worse, felt way less consistent (I definitely felt the ups and downs), and just generally speaking, I thought applying/dealing with the cream was a total PITA.

I'd rather inject daily than apply cream daily from a convenience standpoint alone.

Curious... while having those issues with Cream, did you get labs done? The weirdest part for me is that T values on Cream and T values on injections that were virtually identical had me feeling MUCH different... which causes me to question whether it was something specifically about the cream that was causing issues -- although I don't know what that would be.

 

[Vince Carter]

Those that had problems with the scrotum cream were you tested for E, E symptoms, was an AI available for you?

The largest proponent of exclusive scrotum delivery method advocates letting E go unchecked with no AI offered.

 

[readyforchange]

Those that had problems with the scrotum cream were you tested for E, E symptoms, was an AI available for you?

The largest proponent of exclusive scrotum delivery method advocates letting E go unchecked with no AI offered.

I checked E for myself (even though my doc said it was unnecessary and does not prescribe AI's) and the sensitive E2 was 30. I actually have felt best at an E of 60-70 while on injections... and have not felt good (similar issues to described above) while E is below 40... so perhaps I have an issue with E more than T and for whatever reason, the cream is resulting in less E conversion, even at the same T levels... is that even possible?

 

[S1W]

Curious... while having those issues with Cream, did you get labs done? The weirdest part for me is that T values on Cream and T values on injections that were virtually identical had me feeling MUCH different... which causes me to question whether it was something specifically about the cream that was causing issues -- although I don't know what that would be.

Sure did - full labs. On paper, the labs looked good. But the thing with labs/cream is that you test at peak and because of the fluctuating levels, you're getting a snapshot of a particular moment in time.

As an interesting side note, for example, I have labs from a past injection protocol that are roughly the same as the labs from my cream protocol. Definitely felt better, with roughly the same numbers, on the injection protocol.

 

[S1W]

so perhaps I have an issue with E more than T and for whatever reason, the cream is resulting in less E conversion, even at the same T levels... is that even possible?

It is said that in general, transdermals result in more conversion to E2 because "aromatase lives in the skin".

Regarding the actual response that you feel, you may be feeling the E2 less because of increased DHT levels with the cream. This may be particularly true if you're applying the cream to your scrotum.

 

[readyforchange]

Sure did - full labs. On paper, the labs looked good. But the thing with labs/cream is that you test at peak and because of the fluctuating levels, you're getting a snapshot of a particular moment in time.

As an interesting side note, for example, I have labs from a past injection protocol that are roughly the same as the labs from my cream protocol. Definitely felt better, with roughly the same numbers, on the injection protocol.

That's what I was interested in hearing (how you felt at same T levels on cream vs. injections), because I have been the same way -- same T levels, but feel much worse on cream than I did on injections at those same levels.

 

[DragonBits]

Sure did - full labs. On paper, the labs looked good. But the thing with labs/cream is that you test at peak and because of the fluctuating levels, you're getting a snapshot of a particular moment in time.

As an interesting side note, for example, I have labs from a past injection protocol that are roughly the same as the labs from my cream protocol. Definitely felt better, with roughly the same numbers, on the injection protocol.

Full labs, did that include DHT and SHBG? Especially DHT could change from cream to injection. E2 could also change, but you did that one. Timing of when to test is tricky.

The other factor is release into the blood stream is quite different, gels peak in 16-22 hours while TC injection peaks in 4-5 days. Don't know about when T cream peaks, and no doubt there is more variation in peak levels absorbed by the skin from gels/creams.

 

[Gman86]

From my understanding, creams applied transscotaly usually result in less E2 conversion.

 

[S1W]

Full labs, did that include DHT and SHBG? Especially DHT could change from cream to injection. E2 could also change, but you did that one. Timing of when to test is tricky.

The other factor is release into the blood stream is quite different, gels peak in 16-22 hours while TC injection peaks in 4-5 days. Don't know about when T cream peaks, and no doubt there is more variation in peak levels absorbed by the skin from gels/creams.

Yes'r - and both DHT and SHBG were higher on creams. I don't remember DHT numbers, but it was higher on cream. SHBG went down a few points switching to injections from cream - about 27 on cream down to 23 on injections.

Regarding E2 and thinking it through, E2 at its absolute peak would actually be higher on injections vs cream IF one is using the typical E3.5D or less frequent injection protocols because of the spike we get injecting larger doses. As I frequently see Vince Carter mention, we tend to test at trough on an injection protocol and E2 is actually higher at other times throughout the week than what we see when we do labs at trough. When I was playing around with my peak/trough labs on an injection protocol (60mg E3.5D), my peak TT was about 1480 and peak E2 was 54 about 24 hours after injection. A few days later at trough, TT was down to 880 and E2 down to 47. Again, that was with SHBG of 23.

For me, T cream peaks about about 4 hours, give or take, after application. In my experience with TC, peak occurs about 24 hours after injection. I have actually played with labs on consecutive days to confirm this. This may just be the case for me though, as I sometimes wonder whether we all cleave the ester off at different rates, or something to that effect...

It's worth noting that I do not have an apples to apples comparison as my cream dose was 100mg/week, dose applied daily. I do not have labs from a 100mg/week, daily injection protocol. I almost feel like that may be the only fair comparison.

 

[txmx]

readyforchanged, what % T cream are you using? If 20%, that is a boatload of T cream daily. You can possibly improve absorption by using a very warm washcloth compress beforehand. This will both open the pores and increase water content of the skin. Both aid in absorption.

DragonBits, I would think DMSO would massively aid in absorption. Where do you apply the cream, what percentage is it, and how many clicks a day?

 

[readyforchange]

readyforchanged, what % T cream are you using? If 20%, that is a boatload of T cream daily. You can possibly improve absorption by using a very warm washcloth compress beforehand. This will both open the pores and increase water content of the skin. Both aid in absorption.

DragonBits, I would think DMSO would massively aid in absorption. Where do you apply the cream, what percentage is it, and how many clicks a day?

I'm not sure what % it is -- I know it's 200mg/ml -- and I'm doing 350mg per day (split into a.m. and p.m. doses) straight to the scrotum -- and yes, it IS a boatload of cream. It's currently running my $110/month just for the cream.

I've heard talk here and there of a percentage of people who don't respond/absorb cream well, and if that's true, I certainly appear to be one of them.

At this point, I've tried to make this work -- I've wanted it to work so badly -- but at some point, you gotta acknowledge what's really going on.

 

[txmx]

As a point of reference with 20% T cream (200mg/ml), I came in about 300 Total T, applied to forearms or shoulders, a big non-absorption fail. I switched to below the bicep, prepped the skin with Neutrogena Deep Clean facial cleanser to break the skin barrier down a bit, and then very warm water compress to increase skin water content. Total T went up to 900 with these changes.

 

[Joe Sixpack]

FWIW, I do best on a combination protocol of injections 3x/week combined with daily cream application. I feel better and my sex life is better on the combo rather than on cream or injections separately.