Individualized differences based on carrier oils used for Test Cyp?

[rifter]

Has anyone done a blood test comparison between using grapeseed and cottonseed oil based testosterone cypionate?

Some time ago, I used a bottle of Wilshire testosterone cypionate which (and I would love someone to confirm this) I believe was cottonseed oil based. This was sold to me by my compounding pharmacy as they were short of their own product at the time. They referred to this as "commercial" or "retail" if memory serves.

My bloodwork was perfect - Great Total & Free T, solid E2, excellent hematocrit and hematology. To top it off, I remember feeling really good, so much so, I kept the box around for a number of months so I could remember the name.

I then went back to my normal grapeseed compounded testosterone cypionate. Total & Free T was erratic, sometimes over, sometimes well under the high-end, horrible hematocrit and slightly higher E2 levels (to the point where my doc actually suggested I start using an AI again) and generally don't feel as good. Dosage didn't change.

I'm thinking this could either be:
1) completely placebo
2) differing absorption or dispersion rates between grapeseed and cottonseed (is this even a thing?)
3) my body simply utilizes cottonseed oil differently than grapeseed

I'm also aware that more frequent administration (like EOD vs. twice weekly) has been noted by some individuals to better control hematocrit and E2 at the same weekly dosage.

My thought is that if this is due to the way someone metabolizes the carrier oil, then many of the side-effects people experience (like the hematocrit or high E2 symptoms) could also be controlled through carrier oil selection as a consideration, in addition to changing frequency of administration, lowering the dose or changing the ester etc.

There must also be some research indicating why pharmaceutical/retail versions use cottonseed oil instead of another carrier oil.

I'd be interested if anyone has any thoughts on this or has done research on different carriers, or otherwise has recent experience between switching from branded Test C using cottonseed, to compounded Test C using grapeseed?

 

[jacb]

Hi Rifter

Not sure this will help you much, but I was also interested in the Carrier Oil and it effect. I found some local pain with certain Test Cyp products and not others (nothing serious) and thought it might be useful to identity which suppliers used which oil (Not always stated). This was my fledgling attempt LINK which didn’t go very far. You are talking about potentially more serious effects and it might be worth revisiting the list?

 

[Vman]

I don't know if it's the carrier oil or the manufacturer but I have local pain and swelling every time from certain manufacturers. So much so that I had to specifically request a certain manufacturer back when I was on non-compounded T Cyp through my local pharmacy. I have since switched to Defy and get my compounded T Cyp through Empower and have no issues with it.

Also, my previous doc said he had one patient with an allergy to one of the oils so he had his T Cyp compounded in another oil.

 

[jacb]

I suppose what we need is a list of the oils and a pain/no pain survey. Of course this wouldn’t deal with individuals allergies.

Cotton seed oil was pain free for me.

 

[Jason Sypolt]

Aside from a possible allergic reaction which is more likely with cottonseed oil, the carrier oil itself had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Consider:
1) Your lab results could either be exactly the same, or they could be hundreds of ng/dL different depending on what is going on with your body. Testosterone alone doesn’t determine your serum testosterone level.

2) More likely is the fact that both compounded and “retail” Testosterone Cypionate are permitted to vary in actual strength +/- 10% from the strength stated on the vial. The FDA considers that good enough and within spec when it comes to Testosterone Cypionate. So you could end up with 1 vial at 95% of the strength and another vial at 104% of the strength. I have also seen stability reports of compounded T increasing in strength during the 365 stability test.

The point is that there are differences product to product along with the same product possibly changing over time as well. And that’s before the completely unpredictable state that the body will be in lab draw to lab draw.

 

[Fortunate]

Old thread, but would like to bring back to life. My struggles with injections are posted all over the forum, unfortunately. On injection day, and sometimes for more than a day, I tend to get a headache to ranges from annoying to really bad. I have hypothesized about what is causing it (BP spike, T level spike, E2 spike, ester and/or oil not tolerated), but have never quite figured it out.

My local doc recently mentioned a pharmacy that is making T cyp in a low viscosity oil. It was some type of oleic acid oil or something. She couldn't recall exactly what it was, but it piqued my interest. One of my theories is that the headaches are related to an inflammatory reaction to the oils.

Does anyone have experience with alternative oils (alternative to the common sesame, cottonseed, grapeseed, etc)?

 

[Cataceous]

Ethyl oleate is sometimes used as a carrier. I had progesterone come in ethyl oleate, and further diluted it with the same. It seemed to be fine. However, I recall that there may be some concerns about using it long-term.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Definitely interested in this topic. I know theoretically there should be no difference but my last order from Defy I placed it for Pfizer TC which is cottonseed. I've never felt great on empowers with grapeseed. Not expecting anything huge from the change but I'll update everyone in a few weeks or months.

 

[Fortunate]

Ethyl oleate is sometimes used as a carrier. I had progesterone come in ethyl oleate, and further diluted it with the same. It seemed to be fine. However, I recall that there may be some concerns about using it long-term.

@Cataceous, that may be it. Do you know what the long term concerns are? Is it this?

Virtually all injections trigger headaches for me, and one theory is that it could be related to the oil (inflammatory response of some sort). As I have posted before, this has led me to use Natesto for much of the last few years. I just recently decided to give Jatenzo a try. While a pill twice a day is less convenient than periodic injections, it should be easier than a nasal application three times a day.

If Jatenzo does not work out, my next step is to try injections one more time, this time with the low viscosity oil, just to see if it is better tolerated than the others. If neither of these are tolerable, than it's back to Natesto....

 

[Cataceous]

@Cataceous, that may be it. Do you know what the long term concerns are? Is it this?
...

That ties in to the stated concern that it's ethyl oleate causing much of the damage in alcoholism. However, it's undoubtedly a case of the dose making the poison. It would take some more digging to get an estimate of how much ethyl oleate is created after the consumption of a typical serving of ethanol. With this we could get a better sense of the risk. My progesterone still comes in ethyl oleate, but I now perform the dilution with grapeseed oil, reducing my daily exposure to about 3 mg of ethyl oleate. I'm betting this is too small to worry about.

 

[Fortunate]

That ties in to the stated concern that it's ethyl oleate causing much of the damage in alcoholism. However, it's undoubtedly a case of the dose making the poison. It would take some more digging to get an estimate of how much ethyl oleate is created after the consumption of a typical serving of ethanol. With this we could get a better sense of the risk. My progesterone still comes in ethyl oleate, but I now perform the dilution with grapeseed oil, reducing my daily exposure to about 3 mg of ethyl oleate. I'm betting this is too small to worry about.

I just did some bro science research on ethyl oleate. Sounds like there are tons of bad stories of reactions to it. I am not sure that ethyl oleate is what my doc was recommending, but I will find out.

 

[Gianluca]

Definitely interested in this topic. I know theoretically there should be no difference but my last order from Defy I placed it for Pfizer TC which is cottonseed. I've never felt great on empowers with grapeseed. Not expecting anything huge from the change but I'll update everyone in a few weeks or months.

curios to hear any updates about it.

 

[Gianluca]

I notice when using Empower Test CYP (grape seed oil) my Hemoglobin goes over 18, but with Hallandale Test CYP ( sesame oil) same dose/protocol, my hemoglobin seats in the low/mid 17s. I also get slight better Testosterone numbers. And I was just thinking about this the other day.

This happened to me years ago also, when I switched from Hallandale Pharmacy to APS Pharmacy (Grape seed oil). Along with that, I started to notice some water retention I did not have my first year on TRT.

On paper different carrier oils should not make any differences, but we can see some anecdotal showing the opposite.

 

[MIP1950]

For me, cottonseed oil is poison, whether food grade or used in test cyp. That's why my doctor prescribes test E. I don't believe there's any specific reason using cottonseed oil other than it was the first commercially produced seed oil, thus readily available. The Pennsylvania Center for the Book - Cottonseed Oil It sounds like, 'Well, we've always used it so why change?'. I'm presuming any oil can be used for injectable T but viscosity could then be an issue. I see safflower oil used in softgels of vitamin D or vitamin E. And as far as pricing, no one is giving away testosterone. When I started in 2013, $15 a vial on my Medicare plan. Now, test E is $62 for a 5 mL vial.

 

[Cataceous]

...
On paper different carrier oils should not make any differences, but we can see some anecdotal showing the opposite.

Even on paper it's acknowledged that differing absorption rates are possible with different carrier oils. Average serum levels should not change much, but peak and trough levels may vary. It's plausible that this could contribute to differences in subjective results.

 

[DixieWrecked]

curios to hear any updates about it.

Just took my first shot with the Pfizer brand two days ago so it's too early to tell.

 

[Gianluca]

Just took my first shot with the Pfizer brand two days ago so it's too early to tell.

got it. I'm also with Defy, I just opted to go back using Hallandle Test CYP in sesamee oil.

 

[MIP1950]

got it. I'm also with Defy, I just opted to go back using Hallandle Test CYP in sesamee oil.

Why Test CYP instead of Test E? My urologist and I discussed this when I couldn't tolerate cottonseed oil. Both cyp and E are structurally similar. Thanks.

 

[Gianluca]

Why Test CYP instead of Test E? My urologist and I discussed this when I couldn't tolerate cottonseed oil. Both cyp and E are structurally similar. Thanks.

Test CYP half life is a little bit longer, I don't remember the data exactly but they are pretty similar. I believe some people experience some differences with different carrier oil though. Many have negative reactions to cottonseed for sure

 

[MIP1950]

Test CYP half life is a little bit longer, I don't remember the data exactly but they are pretty similar. I believe some people experience some differences with different carrier oil though. Many have negative reactions to cottonseed for sure.

As I previously posted, I wonder why other oils, such as safflower, olive or canola aren't utilized, especially the organic versions. Empower uses grapeseed but when I used their test prop, I didn't feel right. Or it could have been the benzyl alcohol preservative.