Increasing your muscle mass during a rigorous weight loss diet?

[Deleted member 43589]

Hypoenergetic diet–induced weight loss results in ∼20–30% of mass lost as lean body mass (LBM), with the remaining mass lost from adipose tissue. So normally you can expect for every 10 pounds of body weight you lost to also lost 2-3 pounds of muscle tissue. However, is there a way to avoid losing this muscle but still cut the fat?

Thomas M Longland, Sara Y Oikawa, Cameron J Mitchell, Michaela C Devries, Stuart M Phillips, Higher compared with lower dietary protein during an energy deficit combined with intense exercise promotes greater lean mass gain and fat mass loss: a randomized trial, The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Volume 103, Issue 3, March 2016, Pages 738–746, https://doi.org/10.3945/ajcn.115.119339

Higher compared with lower dietary protein during an energy deficit combined with intense exercise promotes greater lean mass gain and fat mass loss: a randomized trial

ABSTRACT. Background: A dietary protein intake higher than the Recommended Dietary Allowance during an energy deficit helps to preserve lean body mass (LBM), pa

academic.oup.com

Design: We used a single-blind, randomized, parallel-group prospective trial. During a 4-wk period, we provided hypoenergetic (∼40% reduction compared with requirements) diets providing 33 ± 1 kcal/kg LBM to young men who were randomly assigned (n = 20/group) to consume either a lower-protein (1.2 g · kg−1 · d−1) control diet (CON) or a higher-protein (2.4 g · kg−1 · d−1) diet (PRO). All subjects performed resistance exercise training combined with high-intensity interval training for 6 d/wk. A 4-compartment model assessment of body composition was made pre- and postintervention.

The protein amount come out to about 0.54g/lb and 0.93g/lb They also did a combination of weight training and HIIT 6 days a week. All subjects were untrained. Participants were provided with all meals and beverages to consume throughout the intervention period (with the exception of water and noncaloric drinks, which were ad libitum).

Conclusions: Our results showed that, during a marked energy deficit, consumption of a diet containing 2.4 g protein · kg−1 · d−1 was more effective than consumption of a diet containing 1.2 g protein · kg−1 · d−1 in promoting increases in LBM and losses of fat mass when combined with a high volume of resistance and anaerobic exercise. Changes in serum cortisol were associated with changes in body fat and LBM, but did not explain much variance in either measure.

In the current study, the loss of fat mass was the sole contributor to the participants’ weight loss.

Very interesting results. We know increasing protein in a restricted diet helped prevent muscle mass losses but now we see it may prevent muscled losses all together. So it seems to be very possible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Thank you for posting @AngeloPierce. I have to wonder if you even read this study?

The CON group, which consumed an energy-restricted diet with a 40 ± 3% reduction in energy intake compared with estimated requirements (33 ± 1 kcal · kg−1 LBM · d−1; 15% protein, 50% carbohydrates, and 35% fat), with 1.2 g · kg−1 protein · d−1.

The PRO group, which consumed an energy-restricted diet with a 40 ± 3% reduction in energy intake compared with estimated requirements (33 ± 1 kcal · kg−1 LBM · d−1; 35% protein, 50% carbohydrates, and 15% fat), with 2.4 g · kg−1 protein · d−1.

Diet​

Participants were provided with all meals and beverages to consume throughout the intervention period (with the exception of water and noncaloric drinks, which were ad libitum). Diets corresponded to an individually constructed energy-restricted meal plan. Participants were placed on a 3-d rotating diet with lunchtime and dinnertime meals provided as prepackaged frozen meals (Copper County Foods). Both groups received beverages containing whey protein to be consumed throughout the day, with one beverage being consumed immediately after training in the presence of the investigators on exercise days.

Copper County Foods seem to provide well prpared, balanced and nutritious meals. Both groups received them which in research is the best way to control what the subjects eat. One group (PRO) was high protein 2.4g/kg, low fat and the other group (CON) was almost what most consider to be the typical "American Diet" with 1.2g/kg of protein. Both groups received an energy restricted diet based on their weight.

Exercise training​

Participants reported to the laboratory 6 d/wk for exercise training that consisted of the following: 1) a full-body resistance exercise circuit, which was completed 2 times/wk with circuits (no rest between exercises). Circuits included 10 repetitions/set for 3 sets at 80% of 1RM, with the last set of each exercise to volitional failure, with 1 min of rest between sets; 2) HIT/SIT, which took place 2 times/wk. Sessions consisted of one session of SIT (progressing from four to eight 30-s Wingate bouts) with a 4-min rest between bouts (protocol described in detail below), and a second session of modified HIT consisting of 10 bouts of an all-out sprint for 1 min at 90% of peak power (watts at [IMG alt="graphic"]https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup..._&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIE5G5CRDK6RD3PGA[/IMG]O2max), with 1-min rest intervals pedaling at 50 W; 3) a weekly 250-kJ time trial on a cycle ergometer during which participants were instructed to complete the trial as quickly as possible while self-adjusting the ergometer resistance; and 4) a plyometric body weight circuit with a 30-s rest between exercises.

To prevent sedentary activity at nonexercise times, all participants were provided with a hip-worn pedometer (AccuSTEP 400; ACCUSPLIT) and were instructed to accumulate at least 10,000 steps/d throughout the trial. Step counts were monitored on a daily basis and averaged 11,915 ± 2492 steps/d throughout the intervention, with no differences pre- to postintervention or between groups. Subjects who reported >2 consecutive days of <10,000 steps/d were instructed to complete greater steps in the ensuing 2–3 d to ensure that their average number of daily steps was ≥10,000.

RESULTS​

There was substantial weight loss in both groups from pre- to postintervention, but there were no differences in body weight loss between groups (P > 0.8) (Figure 2). During the intervention, LBM remained unchanged in the CON group (0.1 ± 1.0 kg; P < 0.45); however, LBM increased in the PRO group (1.2 ± 1.0 kg) compared with preintervention, and this increase was greater (P < 0.05) than in the CON group. Both PRO and CON groups showed a decrease in fat mass after the intervention (P < 0.001); however, fat mass losses were greater (P < 0.05) in the PRO group (−4.8 ± 1.6 kg) than in the CON group (−3.5 ± 1.4 kg) (Figure 2).

As you the high protein not only dropped fat but gained a substancial amount of lean body mass or muscle.

Check out the metabolic and hormonal factors involved

From the Discussion

In the current study, the loss of fat mass was the sole contributor to the participants’ weight loss. Data from Trapp et al. (25) suggest that lipolysis increases over 20 min of HIT training gradually with each session. This research suggests that the high-intensity exercise our current participants were subjected to likely enhanced their capacity for fat oxidation and may have induced an increase in muscle mitochondrial enzyme activity (25). Evidence from the current trial suggests that high-quality weight loss (i.e., weight loss with a high fat:LBM ratio), is attainable during marked energy restriction with a higher intake of dietary protein in overweight young men.

Conclusion

In summary, the present study provides evidence that, in young men, consuming a higher protein diet (2.4 g · kg−1 · d−1) during energy deficit (∼40% reduction in energy intake compared with requirements) while performing intense resistance exercise training and HIT can augment LBM over a 28-d period. Furthermore, these high-intensity exercises performed during a period of energy deficit have the ability to preserve LBM despite a lower protein intake (1.2 g · kg−1 · d−1). In conclusion, the current study provides direct evidence that a higher protein diet during substantial energy deficit and HIT not only preserves, but increases, LBM and HIT during the energy deficit, irrespective of protein intake, and increases strength and performance in young men.


So to your comments about this being ALMOST impossible, apparently it is not that hard to do. Seems also the exhausting workouts did not harm general health as seen in metabolic and hormonal blood tests before and after. These over weight men were healtier than when they started. As a exercise and health professional, plastic surgery would be the last thing I would suggest as a way to lose fat. The real problem is most need dietary changes as well as going into breaking that comfort zone by getting off the couch and exercising.

Speaking of trainers, lots of trainers all over the world have used the results of this study to help clients gain muscle and lose bodyfat by doing extesive exercise programs and increasing the amoun of protein they eat in combination with a caloric deficite.

 

[tareload]

Hope your thread is ok place to place a related real world example BigTex. I don't often solicit advice but here's my attempt to try and look at my "great" ideas with a more critical eye and get feedback from those that know what the hell they are doing.

Current typical day on my new "lean bulk" in an effort to gain muscle lb while maintaining the fat lb I carry. It worked well in the past. The result to increase total body mass (weight) while decreasing bodyfat percentage (I know, stupid goal for an older dude but we all have to have a hobby). Currently 232 lb and let's call it 10% BF (+/-2%). Just upped Test dose to 120 mg/week from 100 mg/week (living on the Wild Side).

First thing that jumps out at me is I use too much protein powder. Typical day can include 1 or two bags of frozen spinach, broccoli or brussel sprouts.

kcal breakdown:
44% P / 9% net C / 48% F
(Chronometer has not figured out how to round to 100 yet)

This is sort of a bastardized form of MDP's Anabolic Diet (a gluconeogenic version of a prior Keto Diet I used for years with much lower protein content). I don't do well at all with carbs (even assisted with TOT/TRT) given my poor insulin sensitivity. My fasting insulin below range and fasting blood glucose has always been above 85 even if I don't eat for a week (yes I tried it). The denominators below are targets for maintenance on a higher protein "keto" plan.

Major source of carbs is the almonds. No I am not falling for those new "keto" tortillas with the modified wheat starch they label as fiber .

Biggest question is... am I asking for trouble from cardiovascular standpoint? Trig/HDL-c ratio always way below 1 with HDL 60-70 and Trigs at <50 if I stay away from the 17-AA AAS. Feedback I received from others is way too much meat, no fruit, more veggies. I don't eat fruit unless some blueberries every one in a while.


This paper has me thinking...

High-protein diets increase cardiovascular risk by activating macrophage mTOR to suppress mitophagy - PMC

High protein diets are commonly utilized for weight loss, yet have been reported to raise cardiovascular risk. The mechanisms underlying this risk are unknown. Here, we show that dietary protein drives atherosclerosis and lesion complexity. Protein ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Will need to find the exact chow used and of course it is a rodent study. Been incorporating more top round but much of my protein comes from tuna and lots of sardines.

Thanks for any feedback or insight in advance. Tweaks? Flaws, feedback?

Experienced bodybuilder/weight training enthusiasts: should I find another hobby?

That was what a high level NPC competitor told me many years ago when I just got started LOL.

About 10 pounds heavier and same approx. BF from a few years ago...


Examples:
Top table: TRT+ mode
Bottle table: Previous “natural” mode after a serious body recomp


Decent equations for those interested in circumference based estimates:

Summary of Bodyfat Estimation Equations - Copy into MS Excel

May save you some time from posing the question on here…what’s my bodyfat %? If you can’t get a consensus under 15% mean with +/-3% SD then decent chance the answer is too darn high. Could also use the quick rule of thumb: waist-to-height ratio: keep it <=0.5 --see more info in the thread...

forums.t-nation.com

Thank you in advance for taking a look!

 

[Belekas]

Looking good G, lean and mean) Awesome! I'd say if you love this way of eating and its sustainable for you - crack on and enjoy. I'm on the other end of spectrum- high carbs and lower fat, just not that lean. I'd def add fruit and vegetables and lots of them for antioxidants and other health benefits. I honestly think we need fiber and its been linked with many health benefits as well. But since you have everything nailed down I guess its no bueno for you. I couldn't eat this way I enjoy carbs too much) and believe they are essential for longevity. I listened an interesting podcast with some scientists, don't recall which ones, so main problem with Keto-type diet is that you don't feed important bacteria colonies in the gut and if you do it long-term, those colonies of bacteria die out and become extinct and never come back. And they are correlated with huge health benefits, longevity and immune defense systems as I understood. So from this point of view it does make sense to me to keep and eat a well balanced diet of wholefoods, with lots of fruits and vegetables. Ofcourse you gotta pick the ones that do your gut good and thats a whole another process by itself. Other then that if you diet makes you feel great, perform well and your blood markerts don't scream anything then I think its reasonable to keep on doing what you're doing. There def ain't a one diet fit all cookie cutter bs as we all are so different and unique and thats beautiful. Gotta find your own way through trial and error, as always )

p.s. thats a lot of protein you're doing Brother, damn, I remember I was eating bit less when was building my physiq 17 years ago. Boy those were the days but they long gone now as digesting has became a lot different over the years or I just have become too sloppy to start filling back the rig and go back to beast mode)

 

[sammmy]

So basically the originally posted study says that 0.5g/lb protein preserves the lean muscle mass while in 40% calorie deficit and vigorous training (leading to about 4kg = 8lb wait loss) while 1g/lb protein increases the lean muscle mass by about 1kg = 2lb.

Limitation of the study is that these were rather young 23 years old men. Not clear if the same protein consumption rules would apply to older subjects.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

You are taking in 2.64 g of protein/pound of body weight. Harmful, I don't think so. I see you are doing a modified version of the Anabolic Diet.

I know Dr. Volek suggest the following with a Keto diet

10% or less carbs < 50g/d more than that you are kicked out of ketosis
20% or less Protein 1.2 - 2g/kg Volek stresses this is not a high protein diet as the excess protein can form glucose and kick you out of ketosis.

Total fat > 150g/d Here you can make up for the extra calories you need. So you might try dropping your protein to 2g/kg, dropping the carbs slightly and increasing the fat. Inow its hard to get 5100 calories. If you are wanting to add carbs one day then go up on the carbs, down on the fat.

Hey, love all the data you have. You are as anal as I am about this stuff.

 

[sammmy]

@readalot

You can easily increase the fat by eating whole milk and yogurt instead of fat-free. We are adapted to real food through thousands of years of evolution. The fat free milk and yogurt may contain extra unwanted ingredients to substitute for the fat.

Also, you could eat a few real eggs instead of only egg whites. The eggs contain vitamins and your cholesterol is not going to go up significantly - your liver will just produce less.

You can increase your vitamins by drinking vegetable juices (tomato mixed with other vegetables) such as V8. They are very low on calories, avoid mixes including carrots if you are counting carbs that tightly.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Looking good G, lean and mean) Awesome! I'd say if you love this way of eating and its sustainable for you - crack on and enjoy. I'm on the other end of spectrum- high carbs and lower fat, just not that lean. I'd def add fruit and vegetables and lots of them for antioxidants and other health benefits. I honestly think we need fiber and its been linked with many health benefits as well. But since you have everything nailed down I guess its no bueno for you. I couldn't eat this way I enjoy carbs too much) and believe they are essential for longevity. I listened an interesting podcast with some scientists, don't recall which ones, so main problem with Keto-type diet is that you don't feed important bacteria colonies in the gut and if you do it long-term, those colonies of bacteria die out and become extinct and never come back. And they are correlated with huge health benefits, longevity and immune defense systems as I understood. So from this point of view it does make sense to me to keep and eat a well balanced diet of wholefoods, with lots of fruits and vegetables. Ofcourse you gotta pick the ones that do your gut good and thats a whole another process by itself. Other then that if you diet makes you feel great, perform well and your blood markerts don't scream anything then I think its reasonable to keep on doing what you're doing. There def ain't a one diet fit all cookie cutter bs as we all are so different and unique and thats beautiful. Gotta find your own way through trial and error, as always )

p.s. thats a lot of protein you're doing Brother, damn, I remember I was eating bit less when was building my physiq 17 years ago. Boy those were the days but they long gone now as digesting has became a lot different over the years or I just have become too sloppy to start filling back the rig and go back to beast mode)

How do you know when your digestion is suffering the rath of father time?

 

[Belekas]

How do you know when your digestion is suffering the rath of father time?

Is this really a serious question and you have no idea about your own digestion over the years?

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Experienced bodybuilder/weight training enthusiasts: should I find another hobby?

That was what a high level NPC competitor told me many years ago when I just got started LOL.

I forgot this one.......Absolutely poor advice. Competition is not for everyone. There is no reason why you can't enjoy the sport of bodybuilding with out ever stepping onto a stage and competing. Its all about the lifestyle.

When I changed from competitive powerlifting to more of bodybuilding I was amazed at how I could totally reshape my body. I went from the shape of a refrigerator to actually having a shape. From sitting on my ass so I am not too tired to squat to doing what I wanted to do and start taking my health into consideration for the 1st time in my life. Its hard to do that competing because your only goal is winning. This is the best hobby in the world.

Last, the fact that you are at just over 200lbs and are able to eat such a large amount of protein/calories and keep the body fat down shows the powerful Thermic Effect of protein.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Here is more for you. Remember the study showing cardiac issues from high protein was an animal study. Not such good evidence when it come to humans. But here is what we do know in humans.

1. Research suggests that replacing dietary carbohydrates with protein may decrease the risk of heart disease.

Hu FB, Stampfer MJ, Manson JA et al. Dietary protein and risk of ischemic heart disease in women. Am J Clin Nutr 1999;70:221-227.

Dietary protein and risk of ischemic heart disease in women - PubMed

Our data do not support the hypothesis that a high protein intake increases the risk of ischemic heart disease. In contrast, our findings suggest that replacing carbohydrates with protein may be associated with a lower risk of ischemic heart disease. Because a high dietary protein intake is...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

2. Replacing dietary carbohydrates with protein improves blood lipid profiles by decreasing triglyceride levels and increasing HDL (good) Cholesterol levels.

Layman DK, Boileau RA, Erickson DJ, Painter JE, Shiue H, Sather C, Christou DD. A reduced ratio of dietary carbohydrate to protein improves body composition and blood lipid profiles during weight loss in adult women. J Nutr. 2003 Feb;133(2):411-7.

A reduced ratio of dietary carbohydrate to protein improves body composition and blood lipid profiles during weight loss in adult women - PubMed

Claims about the merits or risks of carbohydrate (CHO) vs. protein for weight loss diets are extensive, yet the ideal ratio of dietary carbohydrate to protein for adult health and weight management remains unknown. This study examined the efficacy of two weight loss diets with modified...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

3. The metabolism of carbohydrates and/or fats increases the production of free radical levels to a much greater degree than the metabolism of protein.

Mohanty P, Ghanim H, Hamouda W et al. Both lipid and protein intake stimulates increased generation of reactive oxygen species by polymorphonuclear leukocytes and mononuclear cells. Am J Clin Nutr 2002;75:767-772.

Both lipid and protein intakes stimulate increased generation of reactive oxygen species by polymorphonuclear leukocytes and mononuclear cells - PubMed

Both fat and protein intakes stimulate ROS generation. The increase in ROS generation lasted 3 h after cream intake and 1 h after protein intake. Cream intake also caused a significant and prolonged increase in lipid peroxidation. These data are important because increased ROS generation and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

4. High levels of free radicals are thought to accelerate the formation of atherosclerosis, the major cause of heart disease.

Paolisso G, Esposito R, D’Alessio MA, Barbieri M. Primary and secondary prevention of atherosclerosis: is there a role for antioxidants? Diabetes Metab. 1999 Sep;25(4):298-306.

Primary and secondary prevention of atherosclerosis: is there a role for antioxidants? - PubMed

Elevated plasma free radical concentration (expression of enhanced oxidative stress) is related to different pathophysiological conditions such as ageing, cancer and diabetes. Nevertheless, even in healthy subjects a rise in plasma free radicals is due to hyperglycaemia, elevated free fatty...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Last....there is nothing wrong with a protein shake....great source of casein and whey without much fat or calories.

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

Is this really a serious question and you have no idea about your own

The condescension ^

 

[Belekas]

The condescension ^

?

 

[Fernando Almaguer]

?

 

[tareload]

Thanks for all the feedback and sorry for delay in responding. Have gained another 5 lb (currently 237 lb) while bodyfat% has dropped a little bit (total lb of fat about same).

High-protein diets increase cardiovascular risk by activating macrophage mTOR to suppress mitophagy - PMC

High protein diets are commonly utilized for weight loss, yet have been reported to raise cardiovascular risk. The mechanisms underlying this risk are unknown. Here, we show that dietary protein drives atherosclerosis and lesion complexity. Protein ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

No discussion of the interplay between carbs, protein and fat here. Seems incomplete picture to me.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

Very incomplete. I never put too much stock on studies done on mice. Interesting but humans often react differently. Yet this one study has circulated all over the internet and is now being used by even the medical community to scare people aaway from eating potein. Maybe they prefer us to eat meal worms and bugs instead.....lately there there is a global effort to coherse people into not eating protein.

Clinical trials indicates that higher-protein diets increase short-term weight loss and improve blood lipids, but long-term data are lacking. Findings from epidemiologic studies show a significant relationship between increased protein intake and lower risk of hypertension and coronary heart disease. However, different sources of protein appear to have different effects on cardiovascular disease.

Protein, body weight, and cardiovascular health - PubMed

Widespread popularity of high-protein diets has drawn controversy as well as scientific interest. By reducing intake of carbohydrates and increasing consumption of fats and proteins, such diets are thought to increase satiety, facilitate weight loss, and improve cardiovascular risk factors. In...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Now, here is a guy who I have known for decades, Dr. Jose Antonio, who is actually an expert in the field of dietary protein consumption and has publish several studies both short term and long term on high protein consumption in "trained" individuals. One such study being 2 years.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

I too have been on this bandwagon (dump BF, stall or gain muscle). i had a dexa scan in nov last year at 30%, next one coming due. (home devices put me at 25% BF, i need to confirm this with dexa)
I am coming to the conclusion that the best way of achieving that goal is a keto/carnivore diet with high protein intake (which comes naturally in this diet)
you will not achieve good satiety on a carb diet in a calorie deficit in my exp.
there is another problem, is that on a carb diet your body might be having a hard time utilizing stored fat. i tried both approaches (keto and carb), and what happened on a carb diet for me (while keeping macros similar) is that once my body burned through dietary carbs i got very lethargic and cold + hungry. once i started keto, after 1-2 weeks or so, i do not exp, this symptom any longer even when I fast. i eat 2-3 times a day (3x on gym days) and have always good energy. initially i did see small dips in my strength but this is back to normal now.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

My wife is like you, she reacts very poorly eating carbs. I am the exact opposite, I can't function with low carbs. I got low carb on the weekends when i don't train and can hardly get off the couch. The only thing we both have in common is high protein, just from different sources.

 

[t_spacemonkey]

My wife is like you, she reacts very poorly eating carbs. I am the exact opposite, I can't function with low carbs. I got low carb on the weekends when i don't train and can hardly get off the couch. The only thing we both have in common is high protein, just from different sources.

listening to some people like DeLauer and others, if you have a very hard time switching into keto or fasting, your metabolic health/flexibility is low. not saying this is specifically you, but this idea floats around. i think there is some merit to it. what i noticed in the past, when i went into keto first time, i was going through hell for a week or so. then i was on and off keto quite frequently in 22. now the last time, i had very little negative s/x doing this transition. could it be my body adjusted to fat burning better?
i think 1 of the markers of metabolic health you can do is fasting insulin levels. on my plate just too lazy go for a blood draw right now.
there is a lot of controversy and denial of fat adaptation, but i think the whole obesity epidemic is much more complex then calories in/out.

 

[Deleted member 43589]

I have tried keto maybe 3 times in my life. Made it about 3 months and the other two were about 12 hours. I like carbs and the craving kicked my ass even for 3 months. I haev very few things I like to eat and diary products are a big part of it. I am not really big on pork and beef only chicken, fish and eggs. I love when protein, or any other kind of protein supplement. SInnce I was a competitive powerlifter, it completely derailed my traininng. Powerlifting or BB absolutely needs carbohydrates to support the glycolitic energy phase. With powerlifting I lost strength big time and started cramping. If I want to drop weight, I can easily drop 10lbs in two weeks since i have to force myself to eat. I keep the fat off eating donuts and ice cream. The wife hates watching me eat.

My wife always claims she is doing keto but she can eat 3-4 lbs of meat a day easily. Doesn't matter what kind. This is absolutely not keto.

I have a nice paper on the calorie. Most do not understand this concept and take it way too literally.