Ideally mimicking the body's testosterone process

[zojo360]

So I have been doing some reading on various different forums and came across an interesting thought. From what I know, the male testes can naturally produce 6-10 mgs of testosterone daily in a pulsing fashion. Levels can fluctuate quite rapidly throughout the day and this seems to be good for a number of reasons. This also provides spikes in testosterone along with estradiol that we all can feel. My question on this is: since most here are on a bi-weekly injection which keeps testosterone levels mostly stable and elavated, can there be a downside to having your testosterone levels always on the higher side such as androgen receptor "burnout" or what I call tolerance? Another point was made that it is better let's say to do weekly injections to give our bodies the occasional spike in testosterone and estradiol which could be beneficial as long as side effects don't become problematic. I completely agree that the bi-monthly crap is a doom and gloom situation but allowing your body to feel minor spikes in testosterone and estradiol do sound interesting along with not burning out the receptors.

I'm on 50mgs cyp IM E3.5 and very content but curious as if it just may be more "natural" to mix this up occasionally such as every couple weeks take 100mgs and ride that out for a few weeks. Essentially confusing your body to the dosage.

Any thoughts?????

 

[Henry]

I've done every 3.5 days on injections and I've done daily with Androgel. I've ready that Androgel is more 'natural' since you get the daily 'highs and lows' that mimic the body's natural circadian rhythm.

I do feel better on Androgel but that might be because of the DHT spike, who knows.

I would say, if every 3.5 days works for you, I would just leave it alone and enjoy it.'

With injections, it would be very hard to follow the body's natural rhythm. Even if you do a daily injection, the cypionate or enanthate ester would just build up and keep a straight line versus the highs and lows of Androgel or propinate.

 

[johndoesmith]

Levels can fluctuate quite rapidly throughout the day and this seems to be good for a number of reasons. This also provides spikes in testosterone along with estradiol that we all can feel

No we can't. I am not aware of any evidence that natural guys feel better in the AM vs PM due to testosterone levels being higher.

E2 does not vary in the natty guy due to diurnal fluctuations of testosterone.



Plus, what you're describing as "tolerance" would be what's called "downregulation" in pharmacology. There isn't evidence of this occurring, and in fact there's evidence that androgens upregulate androgen receptors, although usually in supraphysiological doses.

Another thing, there is some variation even on E3.5D injection protocols. The amount of which will vary from guy to guy, but it is there, I've tested 48h and 72h after injection and I see a 200-300ng/dl difference.

"confusing" the body, essentially is not how it works, and isn't correct. Changing doses, especially in the way of increasing them is called "blasting". Of course I don't think you meant it that way.

I don't mean to come off rude, harsh, or crass, you seem genuinely curious and have decent questions. That's great, we need more of that in the world.

 

[zojo360]

Jds, never take anything harsh here and prefer the brutal facts. This is why I ask. For insight into every aspect of TRT. Especially in the long run. This is a changing science and because of guys like you and others, we are all in good hands imho. I'm in this for all the right reasons and feel like I can ask my questions here and get different, logical responses. My description of feeling spikes of hormones may be incorrect on a daily basis yet we can agree that they are noticeable at some point at different times for different people. What I really was pondering was, is there any pros to some variation in dosages yet still within the weekly mg range? Such as 3 weeks at 50 mgs E3.5 then 1 week at 100mgs. Following week back to e3.5.

My understanding of how our hormones work is, and always will be in continuous education. I could be assuming that exogenous testosterone works like other pharmaceuticals in that you develop tolerance and occasionally need to mix it up. This could be wrong and comes from my experience in other drugs.

 

[johndoesmith]

Jds, never take anything harsh here and prefer the brutal facts. This is why I ask. For insight into every aspect of TRT. Especially in the long run. This is a changing science and because of guys like you and others, we are all in good hands imho

.

Good! That's why you will continue to learn. Those that get upset when presented with facts will not continue to learn or they will look for "alternative facts".

My description of feeling spikes of hormones may be incorrect on a daily basis yet we can agree that they are noticeable at some point at different times for different people

Yeah, I can't substantiate my claims that men don't feel different at 8am vs 10pm in terms of testosterone related feelings, and it would probably be hard to control for other factors such as being tired in the AM vs PM for different people.

I can tell you before I had symptoms, I felt no different AM vs PM in terms of sexual symptoms.

Plus, my understanding of nuclear receptor mediated effects vs GPCR mediated effects is that the former are much slower to notice. It isn't like other drugs wearing off where you can feel it, such as caffeine, alcohol, or pain medicine.

What I really was pondering was, is there any pros to some variation in dosages yet still within the weekly mg range? Such as 3 weeks at 50 mgs E3.5 then 1 week at 100mgs. Following week back to e3.5.

It would be very difficult to control E2, get labs, and since testosterone doesn't cause effects quickly, I cannot see a reason for it.

I can only see negatives without any benefits.

My understanding of how our hormones work is, and always will be in continuous education. I could be assuming that exogenous testosterone works like other pharmaceuticals in that you develop tolerance and occasionally need to mix it up. This could be wrong and comes from my experience in other drugs.

Now I don't know the mechanism that prevents androgen receptors from downregulating like GPCRs and other more recreational drugs, but there isn't any evidence of this happening.

Many men here, such as nelson vergel, have been on TRT for years with seemingly no reported loss of effectivity.

 

[Vince Carter]

Plus, what you're describing as "tolerance" would be what's called "downregulation" in pharmacology. There isn't evidence of this occurring, and in fact there's evidence that androgens upregulate androgen receptors, although usually in supraphysiological doses.

Another thing, there is some variation even on E3.5D injection protocols. The amount of which will vary from guy to guy, but it is there, I've tested 48h and 72h after injection and I see a 200-300ng/dl difference.

"confusing" the body, essentially is not how it works, and isn't correct. Changing doses, especially in the way of increasing them is called "blasting". Of course I don't think you meant it that way.

I don't mean to come off rude, harsh, or crass, you seem genuinely curious and have decent questions. That's great, we need more of that in the world.

Thanks, John, perfectly stated.

 

[MikeXL]

I understand what you are trying to do. Make your TRT protocol as close to natural as possible. However, moving from once a week to twice a week while to little to achieve that in my view. Just look at the chart JDS posted. Depending on how you define a "peak", you could conclude that a natty male would have 7 or 8 MINI-peaks a day according to that chart. That is 49-56 a week. A weekly IM protocol call will provide massive peak (relative to these mini peaks). And a 2X weekly IM protocol call will provide 2 semi-massive peak (relative to these mini peaks). So yes the 2x per week is a step closer to natty than is the weekly, but that seems like a very small step

one could argue that sub Q daily injections that are viewed by many to provide a very even release are much closer to natty. The oil is depoted into the fat and release from the fat. I have no proof but I bet if you where able to chart out that release, it would not be perfectly linear. It probably is affected by area of injection, movement, temperature, whether you are awake or asleep etc

 

[johndoesmith]

I understand what you are trying to do. Make your TRT protocol as close to natural as possible. However, moving from once a week to twice a week while to little to achieve that in my view. Just look at the chart JDS posted. Depending on how you define a "peak", you could conclude that a natty male would have 7 or 8 MINI-peaks a day according to that chart. That is 49-56 a week. A weekly IM protocol call will provide massive peak (relative to these mini peaks). And a 2X weekly IM protocol call will provide 2 semi-massive peak (relative to these mini peaks). So yes the 2x per week is a step closer to natty than is the weekly, but that seems like a very small step

one could argue that sub Q daily injections that are viewed by many to provide a very even release are much closer to natty. The oil is depoted into the fat and release from the fat. I have no proof but I bet if you where able to chart out that release, it would not be perfectly linear. It probably is affected by area of injection, movement, temperature, whether you are awake or asleep etc

Heh, the whole point of my picture was that E2 doesn't vary much throughout the day, those are probably just testing errors. 50pmol/l = 10ish pg/ml and it's probably a standard E2 test.



That's natty test variation.

There's no proposed reason for the daily variation of testosterone and you can't really feel a difference in testosterone levels day to day.

When I inject, test is probably soaring within about 12 hours but I feel nothing. I imagine most don't as well.