I messed up pretty bad, and now I need help

[dubp68]

Hi everyone,

First post here. Let me preface by saying I know what I did was completely irresponsible and stupid, and I'm facing consequences of it, and now I'm here for help.

Last July I began using testosterone in a cylce @ 500mg per week for roughly 16 weeks. I convinced myself that I was better off going on cruise / trt dose instead of PCT, highly undermining the consequences of this decision. I started at about 200 a week for a month I believe, then dropped it to 100 a week, and last week dropped it to 50. I also never had bloodwork done, so I have no clue where I am.

I've been dealing with some immense side effects that I believe are related to TRT and I want to get off immediately. I've had extreme emotional breakdowns, anxiety attacks, depression and while the gym has been good and my body looks decent, these mental side effects might kill me. I also want to try and restart before accepting this as a life sentence, I'm 26 and I believe I have a decent shot at doing so.

My research has led me to this regimen I found on this forum:

First 15 days:

HCG 2,500 IU (subcutaneous) once every other day;
Clomiphene citrate 50 mg orally twice a day; and
Tamoxifen 20 mg orally once a day.

Is there anything after the 15 days? I've read other PCT regimens that have clomid going for up to 8 weeks after.

I need blood testing, I know where to get it but which panel do I order?

Any advice is highly appreciated. I believe I've made a terrible choice and I need your help, thank you.

 

[Vince]

Welcome to ExcelMale, at age 26 your body should do it own restart. But it will take some time, first get labs. Personally I would use Nelson's discount labs http://www.discountedlabs.com/ or your doctors labs. You need to know your levels. Hopefully by doing the right things your body will restart on its own.

 

[CoastWatcher]

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...lics-You-May-Want-to-Read-These-PCT-protocols

As Vince noted, you need decent labs to understand where you are. The link to discountedlabs.com can help with that. By simply crashing into some sort of restart protocol, without knowing your current levels, how will you know if your body has responded to the intervention you are now attempting? Flying blindly has brought you to this point, it's time for you to understand just what it is you're dealing with. You should arrange a consultation with a qualified doctor, someone who has managed patients through this process (not just an endocrinologist chosen from a list of insurance-approved providers). Defy Medical, a national practice and a site sponsor, can provide such care. Finally, look at post 15 in the thread attached. It is a far more comprehensive protocol.

 

[Jinzang]

Breath control techniques can help with your anxiety until your hormones get back to their proper levels. A very simple technique is box breathing, explained on this page. Also, the mental exercises described in the book The Sedona Method are helpful.

 

[dubp68]

Thanks for the input everyone. I contacted Defy today and I'm scheduling bloods/physical to get this underway. I really appreciate the advice, thank you.

 

[Sean Reed]

HCG will stimulate your testes, but it sends a negative message to your HPTA and you will stay shut down. Also, the mental issues you are having are probably the result of estrogen.

It is a waste to use a SERM (Clomid or Nolvadex) to restart until you stop HCG. You may need a tiny bit of AI. to manage estro as HCG produces it like crazy.

Discontinue the HCG and run the SERMS, 100 mg Clomid and 20 mg Nolva are plenty. After 10-15 days drop the Clomid to 50 mg/day. 50 Clomid and 20 Nolva should continue for another 10 days. Drop down to either Clomid or Nolva for another week or so.

500 a week should not hurt you, although 16 weeks is a touch on the long side. It is a standard beginners steroid cycle.

I have seen many serious steroid abusers run 2 grams a week for years. They NEVER come off. I have seen amateur and IFBB pros run in excess of 4 grams a week!

They run these insane amounts for decades. When you see bodybuilders who die in their 50's, very often it is the result of decades of massive abuse.

I am not recommending that anyone run 500 mgs a week, but that is nothing compared to what I have seen. Usually 500 mgs/week does not cause any problems that cannot be easily treated.

 

[Gene Devine]

You did the right thing by having Dr Saya look at you and get your restarted - that is if you can be re-started - as you need a well trained TRT practitioner now to help fix you in all ways.

Keep us updated on your progress in this thread so we can see how things work out for you.

 

[dubp68]

HCG will stimulate your testes, but it sends a negative message to your HPTA and you will stay shut down. Also, the mental issues you are having are probably the result of estrogen.

It is a waste to use a SERM (Clomid or Nolvadex) to restart until you stop HCG. You may need a tiny bit of AI. to manage estro as HCG produces it like crazy.

Discontinue the HCG and run the SERMS, 100 mg Clomid and 20 mg Nolva are plenty. After 10-15 days drop the Clomid to 50 mg/day. 50 Clomid and 20 Nolva should continue for another 10 days. Drop down to either Clomid or Nolva for another week or so.

500 a week should not hurt you, although 16 weeks is a touch on the long side. It is a standard beginners steroid cycle.

I have seen many serious steroid abusers run 2 grams a week for years. They NEVER come off. I have seen amateur and IFBB pros run in excess of 4 grams a week!

They run these insane amounts for decades. When you see bodybuilders who die in their 50's, very often it is the result of decades of massive abuse.

I am not recommending that anyone run 500 mgs a week, but that is nothing compared to what I have seen. Usually 500 mgs/week does not cause any problems that cannot be easily treated.

I haven't run any HcG or SERMs yet, been steady on my 50mg a week injection for the last couple of weeks. A lot of the side effects I was having are due to high/low E2 like you said, but it's hard to deal with alone. I want to see if I can just get off of it while I still have a chance.

I got my bloodwork done and here are the results:



test free and total: 405
LH .2
Estradiol 24.4
SHBG 22.5

There's more results I can post up if needed, on mobile right now. From my understanding, test seems way too low for TRT even considering my injection was a week prior. LH seems to indicate I'm totally shut down. E2 and SHBG appear to be normal but based on my sides its probably fluxuating a lot. I'm a rookie at this, anyone have a better idea of what I'm looking at here?

 

[CoastWatcher]

When do you have your Defy consultation?

 

[dubp68]

When do you have your Defy consultation?

They said 2-3 weeks from the time everythings received, just got the physical done so I'm waiting on them to contact me to schedule the consult

 

[Tom Larabee]

Send them an email at [email protected], or call them, don't wait for them to call you, be proactive, otherwise you will wait till they get to you in the queue.

 

[dubp68]

Send them an email at [email protected], or call them, don't wait for them to call you, be proactive, otherwise you will wait till they get to you in the queue.

Will do-didn't know it worked that way.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Will do-didn't know it worked that way.

If you aren't your own advocate, who will be? Keep that in mind as you work through this process.

 

[dubp68]

If you aren't your own advocate, who will be? Keep that in mind as you work through this process.

I was told by the rep that there is a 3-4 week waiting period for consultation, but you're right I gotta get on this.

 

[dubp68]

As estimated, about 2 weeks until my appointment with Dr. Saya. I appreciate all the advise and info, I will keep you guys updated

 

[eli]

That's Scally's PCT, and believe it or not it's a good protocol. Run it. My doctor who deals with bodybuilders also wrote me some big doses of HCG for recovery after 4 years (2500iu three times a week for 4 weeks).
There's another doctor that deals with pro bodybuilders, and he had my friend take MASSIVE doses of HCG. He said he went through hell, but he recovered in 3 months after running steroids for years non-stop. So yea I'd rather go through hell for a few weeks but recover faster.

EDIT: I found my buddy's text message, he said his doctor had him take 10k of HCG in one shot, then 5 days later, 7.5K, then 5 days later 5k, then 5 days later another 5k. Then he ran clomid and nolva for 4 weeks at 50/20. His levels were in the low 700s after 3rd week coming off of Clomid and Nolva. 33 years old male. He is natural now and feels great, getting married soon and very happy guy (from outside at least)

There are people who claim huge HCG doses cause desensitization but not a single human study that backs it up.

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

That's Scally's PCT, and believe it or not it's a good protocol. Run it. My doctor who deals with bodybuilders also wrote me some big doses of HCG for recovery after 4 years (2500iu three times a week for 4 weeks).
There's another doctor that deals with pro bodybuilders, and he had my friend take MASSIVE doses of HCG. He said he went through hell, but he recovered in 3 months after running steroids for years non-stop. So yea I'd rather go through hell for a few weeks but recover faster.

EDIT: I found my buddy's text message, he said his doctor had him take 10k of HCG in one shot, then 5 days later, 7.5K, then 5 days later 5k, then 5 days later another 5k. Then he ran clomid and nolva for 4 weeks at 50/20. His levels were in the low 700s after 3rd week coming off of Clomid and Nolva. 33 years old male. He is natural now and feels great, getting married soon and very happy guy (from outside at least)

There are people who claim huge HCG doses cause desensitization but not a single human study that backs it up.

The same is achieved with much lower initial HCG dosing. The HCG dosing is simply a primer for the testes anyways, the critical part of the HPTA restart is the SERM (Clomid and/or nolvadex) which restarts the system "from the top down".

 

[eli]

The same is achieved with much lower initial HCG dosing. The HCG dosing is simply a primer for the testes anyways, the critical part of the HPTA restart is the SERM (Clomid and/or nolvadex) which restarts the system "from the top down".

I'd love to take a lesser dose and achieve the same results because I'd save money and deal with less E2. Yea I'm prescribed Clomid and Nolva too but after my HCG cycle. Any idea why they prescribe big doses of HCG? It seems to be common with doctors who deal with bodybuilders and probodybuilders

 

[Dr Justin Saya MD]

Any idea why they prescribe big doses of HCG? It seems to be common with doctors who deal with bodybuilders and probodybuilders

Lol your guess is as good as mine, but high dosages for PCT (across the board with HCG, Clomid, nolvadex, etc) has essentially been the norm in the bro-science/bodybuilder realm since the beginning. They are often of the mindset "more is better" even when it comes to PCT regimens.

I've seen equivalent clinical results, but far less side effects with more reasonable dosing for PCT/HPTA restart regimens.

 

[AJ]

Lol your guess is as good as mine, but high dosages for PCT (across the board with HCG, Clomid, nolvadex, etc) has essentially been the norm in the bro-science/bodybuilder realm since the beginning. They are often of the mindset "more is better" even when it comes to PCT regimens.

I've seen equivalent clinical results, but far less side effects with more reasonable dosing for PCT/HPTA restart regimens.

Dr. Saya, your contribution to this forum are invaluable.
I have seen your recommendation for HPTA restart protocol as:
HCG 300-400iu daily X 14 days, FOLLOWED by Clomid 25mg daily X 28 days (6 week cumulative regimen).

Could you please tell me why is Clomid preferred over Nolvadex in the restart protocol by Defy?
Thank you.