How low of Cyp can I go before it doesn’t matter...

[Checkdis]

I am trying to tapper off my TRT and try a restart with Clomid 50mg twice a week plus 1,500 a week of HCG. But I am taking 500iu three times a week of HCG with 10mg of Cypionate twice a week currently.

Originally I was taking 20mg twice a week of Cypionate, and 350iu three times a week of HCG and my TT was 1,100 which I felt was too high for me.

I’m not quite sure where my levels are yet with the smaller dosage of Cypionate and high HCG, but is there a point to such a small dosage of Cypionate, or should I just move to Clomid and HCG now?

My main concern is making sure my pituitary produces LH & FSH. but with supplementing testosterone at a low dose... will my body start to wake up the production?

 

[madman]

I am trying to tapper off my TRT and try a restart with Clomid 50mg twice a week plus 1,500 a week of HCG. But I am taking 500iu three times a week of HCG with 10mg of Cypionate twice a week currently.

Originally I was taking 20mg twice a week of Cypionate, and 350iu three times a week of HCG and my TT was 1,100 which I felt was too high for me.

I’m not quite sure where my levels are yet with the smaller dosage of Cypionate and high HCG, but is there a point to such a small dosage of Cypionate, or should I just move to Clomid and HCG now?

My main concern is making sure my pituitary produces LH & FSH. but with supplementing testosterone at a low dose... will my body start to wake up the production?

When coming off trt you would just stop injecting exogenous testosterone and proceed with a pct protocol.

Tapering is pointless as you want the exogenous testosterone to be cleared from your system before starting pct.

In men who use/abuse testosterone/AAS in high doses for bodybuilding purposes used to taper down in dose before coming off back in the old school days but again it is not needed nor an effective way to come off of testosterone/AAS.

Never heard of anyone tapering off a trt dose!

 

[HealthMan]

Madman once again is right. Your HPT axis is supressed while on TRT. Taper off if your objective is to restart your HPT axis is pointless.

 

[Systemlord]

Your pituitary gland will produce almost zero LH and FSH on any dose of testosterone, so thinking you can raise LH and FSH while on TRT is wrong because you are shutdown.

Clearly you are confused about the rules of how injectable testosterone works. On TRT you can't have your cake and eat it to.

Choices are TRT and optimal levels or low testosterone and LH and FSH are low normal. The latter far more unhealthy.

 

[Checkdis]

Your pituitary gland will produce almost zero LH and FSH on any dose of testosterone, so thinking you can raise LH and FSH while on TRT is wrong because you are shutdown.

Clearly you are confused about the rules of how injectable testosterone works. On TRT you can't have your cake and eat it to.

Choices are TRT and optimal levels or low testosterone and LH and FSH are low normal. The latter far more unhealthy.

I think “confused” is a poor choice in wording. This thread was for clarification, and seeing 40mg a week was increasing my TT over 1000 was not an ideal optimal number for me. The taper was to lower my number to hopefully 600-800 range.

Just the amount I am at is very low for injecting. Almost seems pointless, so I want to try a combination of HCG and Clomid to possibly see if a restart is possible. I was more curious if such a low dose may help bounce back quicker.

 

[Systemlord]

I think “confused” is a poor choice in wording. This thread was for clarification, and seeing 40mg a week was increasing my TT over 1000 was not an ideal optimal number for me. The taper was to lower my number to hopefully 600-800 range.

Just the amount I am at is very low for injecting. Almost seems pointless, so I want to try a combination of HCG and Clomid to possibly see if a restart is possible. I was more curious if such a low dose may help bounce back quicker.

It seems you are sensitive to androgens and perhaps HCG was working a well for you, your testicles were probably adding to your numbers do to the HCG.

Definitely has gotta be some kind of record.

 

[Checkdis]

It seems you are sensitive to androgens and perhaps HCG was working a well for you, your testicles were probably adding to your numbers do to the HCG.

Definitely has gotta be some kind of record.

It seems it, especially with the abuse I did in the past... I am just surprised with the amount of testosterone I am taking right now which is little to nothing, and my blood work was on a day right before injection my levels were still 1,100’s... my numbers are impressive.

Also like to add my blood pressure is a lot better, RBC, Hematocrit, and Hemoglobin.

It basically says it in the title of this thread... does it really get to a point where taking testosterone at such a small amount doesn’t matter.... would it be better to just attempt a restart, or mono HCG in a scenario like this?

 

[Systemlord]

I don't believe in restarts, rinse and repeat when a guy stops clomid levels fall back down to baseline. We like to think we can turn back the clock and start over, but we can't.

HCG mono is slightly more successful than clomid, but controlling estrogen can be a challenge if E2 gets out of hand inside the testicles with an AI can't do anything about. HCG only simulates the bottom half of the testicles which is why it doesn't always work, you're not activating all the pathways.

 

[CROM]

Sounds like maybe they added to much testosterone when mixing your batch. When I did 180mg per week my TT was 725 and FT 29. You’re saying you do 40mg a week and you’re at 1,100? Almost doesn't sound possible.

 

[DragonBits]

Sounds like maybe they added to much testosterone when mixing your batch. When I did 180mg per week my TT was 725 and FT 29. You’re saying you do 40mg a week and you’re at 1,100? Almost doesn't sound possible.

One would have to assume his testicles were producing the bulk of the TT of 1100 and the 40 mg a week was a minor contributor.

 

[Vince]

I am trying to tapper off my TRT and try a restart with Clomid 50mg twice a week plus 1,500 a week of HCG. But I am taking 500iu three times a week of HCG with 10mg of Cypionate twice a week currently.

Originally I was taking 20mg twice a week of Cypionate, and 350iu three times a week of HCG and my TT was 1,100 which I felt was too high for me.

I’m not quite sure where my levels are yet with the smaller dosage of Cypionate and high HCG, but is there a point to such a small dosage of Cypionate, or should I just move to Clomid and HCG now?

My main concern is making sure my pituitary produces LH & FSH. but with supplementing testosterone at a low dose... will my body start to wake up the production?

Were you primary or secondary, what were your levels before you started trt?

 

[Checkdis]

Sounds like maybe they added to much testosterone when mixing your batch. When I did 180mg per week my TT was 725 and FT 29. You’re saying you do 40mg a week and you’re at 1,100? Almost doesn't sound possible.

Correct, and my prescription and brand of Testosterone given has not changed.

Hospira 200 mg/mL (1mL Vial) red top. Just saw they switched to green tops and changed their box around. But I have 6 vials still of the red tops. The green tops actually say the type of oil it is suspended in is Benzyl Alcohol. I would assume the red tops are the same.

@Vince i am secondary, also I am 29 y/o... I tried for nearly a year Clomid restart and the highest I could get was 400’s before my doctor and I concluded that I start Cypionate. Back in April 2017 my TT was 86. Because I was young and really tried high levels of trenbolone and anadrol my doctor thought I possibly had an issue between the hypothalamus and pituitary with GnRH. A MRI scan showed everything in my brain was clean. Can GnRH between both desensitize with abuse? Or would other hormones show to be imbalanced as well if this were the case?

I will be seeing Defy medical in October and consult about PCT protocols. I do feel there may be a chance to restart my HPT axis.

@Systemlord I wish I can run enClomiphene Citrate prescribed with HCG... but of course it is very hard to find a legit source seeing this medication is not approved. Plus I do not trust the India labs which may be over or under dosed. And I do not trust the peptide site which create the drip. I believe this would yield the best outcome to restart my system. I am sure I can get nolvadex with Clomid prescribed but I worry about vision side effects.

@Nelson Vergel looping in to get further thoughts.

 

[Vince]

Dr. Saya is very good with restart protocols, using low dose clomid. Best of luck.

 

[Checkdis]

I don’t follow the logic of this strategy either. My understanding in hcg only simulates LH signal. Any test injected suppresses to near zero. No idea why you’d aim for a certain number. You want to jump start the hpta axis to make test in a reasonable range that makes you feel better. Most of not all of those include clomid from what I’ve seen.

I’d let defy do all of this for you. They’ve posted some success stories.

With the enClomiphene + HCG, HCG + Clomid, or mono HCG?

 

[DragonBits]

I don’t follow the logic of this strategy either. My understanding in hcg only simulates LH signal. Any test injected suppresses to near zero. No idea why you’d aim for a certain number. You want to jump start the hpta axis to make test in a reasonable range that makes you feel better. Most of not all of those include clomid from what I’ve seen.

I’d let defy do all of this for you. They’ve posted some success stories.

I find it very difficult to believe that "any" exogenous testosterone, no matter how small, suppress LH to near zero.

IMO naturally the body will try and maintain some level of testosterone, say for argument's sake it's 500 ng/dl. Then injecting enough testosterone to equal 100 ng/dl would cause LH to lower enough to cause a production of 400 ng/dl and a total testosterone load of 500 ng/dl. Likely not that simple, and hard to predict exactly, but that is what I think would happen.

Unless you really think a dab of testosterone cream = 5 mg would reduce your body to a zero LH and drop your TT way below what it was naturally.

(EDIT to correct math)

 

[Checkdis]

It doesn’t really matter. There’s no medical reason to take doses so low they are not therapeutic. You’d be testing just bc you are curious.

This is probably the answer I am looking for. So if this is true, then one should just attempt to restart their HPT axis.

Of course I will be waiting for new bloods to come in to see what 10mg twice a week yields on my report. All I can really comment on is my BP is a lot better than where it used to be. I am experiencing aches, dry eyes, head aches, but I am going to stop my AI seeing there is really no need.

 

[Vince Carter]

Being secondary quite probably accounts for how this is working for him. If he was primary he'd be miserable.

But I concur with those that say just stop, a taper isn't useful, long term a "restart" or PCT is less likely to be productive, too, But like I said being secondary and being able to use HCG would be worthwhile as long as E stays in check. That much stim to the testes where an AI is less effective could make E go nuts high.

 

[Checkdis]

Being secondary quite probably accounts for how this is working for him. If he was primary he'd be miserable.

But I concur with those that say just stop, a taper isn't useful, long term a "restart" or PCT is less likely to be productive, too, But like I said being secondary and being able to use HCG would be worthwhile as long as E stays in check. That much stim to the testes where an AI is less effective could make E go nuts high.

So I am going to stay on top of my blood work month to month monitoring my estradiol sensitive levels. I do have prescribed Arimadex on hand, but would nolvadex be more useful if I am secondary? The last thing I want to do is crash my estrogen.

 

[Vince Carter]

We know Arimdex/Anastrozole is harder to use on aromatase when it occurs in the testicular environment. a "suicide" AI might be more appropriate to kill it than inhibit it but that's just a passig thought on my part. I've been using Aromasin/Exemestane with good success.

 

[Checkdis]

We know Arimdex/Anastrozole is harder to use on aromatase when it occurs in the testicular environment. a "suicide" AI might be more appropriate to kill it than inhibit it but that's just a passig thought on my part. I've been using Aromasin/Exemestane with good success.

I will ask Defy for this medication switch.