High/Low E2 Causing Lower Back/Spine Issues?

[cja]

This very well might be the dumbest question ever posted, but I have to seek out a answer.

My E2 has always been somewhat high, around 50 or more. About 2 months ago my AI was raised to 3 times per week. After doing so I began to get lower back pain, not just a sore muscle, but severe pain. The pain caused me to go out on short term disability. Fast forward to a bit, my E2 is at 35, I feel great, but am still in pain. I got a MRI done, they found Facet Disease, 2 Bulging Disc, one that is pressing onto S1 Nerve Root. My question, dumb as it may sound...Could my lowering of E2 caused these issues to be seen? With the higher E2 I was not aware of these issues, but now that it is lower they are bothering me to the point I can not even work. My thing is, this didnt appear overnight and the timing of the E2 going down coincides with the lowering of my E2. Joint pain is a symptom of low E2, I know I am not low, but if I have always been high, well you see where I am going.

Thoughts?

 

[Vince]

I sure wouldn't think estradiol levels of 35 would cause 2 Bulging Disc, my estradiol levels is lower at 33.5. Estradiol levels of 50 shouldn't hurt you, why do you lower your level.

 

[cja]

At 50 I had pretty bad bloating and water retention. I was sweaty, felt fatigue as well. Overall since getting it down to 35 I feel much better. Its just the timing of all this lower back and the lowering of the E2 that seem odd to me. I doubt its related, just had to ask. To be clear, I did mess something up in back around 12 years ago, they said it was a spasm, but I think it was disc related. Anyway since then I have had a reoccurring thing, hits about once a year, sometimes twice. Thing is I have always been able to take a few days off, rest and be back too work. This time it seems like there is no end in sight. I start physical therapy soon, doubt it will help, but I do have hopes!


edit...forgot to add I also have advanced facet disease. This is inflammation in the facet joints.

Not fully understanding on how the E2 effects our joints. Does it act as a lubricant for them?

Thanks

 

[get2dichoppa]

So I dont really fully understand the science behind E2 and inflammation in the body, but I do believe I saw a post by Nelson showing that E2 acts as a buffer against inflammation, maybe that has something to do with joints.

Anecdotally speaking I have crashed my E2 twice. First time I got extreme back pain, similar to what you are describing, I wanted to attribute it to exercise but i have never felt anything like this in my life. After that dissipated I crashed my E2 again about a month later (E2=8). My knees now click with every step and I am dealing with some severely dry skin. But I can't see how an E2 level of 35 would cause you issues. Any other signs of low E2 (anxiety, cliking joints, dry skin, insomnia)?

 

[Vince]

At 50 I had pretty bad bloating and water retention. I was sweaty, felt fatigue as well. Overall since getting it down to 35 I feel much better. Its just the timing of all this lower back and the lowering of the E2 that seem odd to me. I doubt its related, just had to ask. To be clear, I did mess something up in back around 12 years ago, they said it was a spasm, but I think it was disc related. Anyway since then I have had a reoccurring thing, hits about once a year, sometimes twice. Thing is I have always been able to take a few days off, rest and be back too work. This time it seems like there is no end in sight. I start physical therapy soon, doubt it will help, but I do have hopes!


edit...forgot to add I also have advanced facet disease. This is inflammation in the facet joints.

Not fully understanding on how the E2 effects our joints. Does it act as a lubricant for them?

Thanks

Are you sure the bloating is from E2, could be just from TRT and hormones adjustment.

 

[captain]

If you are using drugs for erectile dysfunction they will make your back hurt. Some would say its from the sex but they will make your back hurt without sex. The best things I found for myself for a trashed back is Krill oil, Boron and Bio Curcumin. The Curcumin is a little harsh on the gut if taken for long time. It says Boron will increase estrogen but I haven't had that problem.

 

[cja]

So I dont really fully understand the science behind E2 and inflammation in the body, but I do believe I saw a post by Nelson showing that E2 acts as a buffer against inflammation, maybe that has something to do with joints.

Anecdotally speaking I have crashed my E2 twice. First time I got extreme back pain, similar to what you are describing, I wanted to attribute it to exercise but i have never felt anything like this in my life. After that dissipated I crashed my E2 again about a month later (E2=8). My knees now click with every step and I am dealing with some severely dry skin. But I can't see how an E2 level of 35 would cause you issues. Any other signs of low E2 (anxiety, cliking joints, dry skin, insomnia)?

Nothing out of the ordinary, I had really bad anxiety pre TRT but since getting on TRT anxiety is rare now. I do have somewhat dry skin, though it only shows around the nose/cheek/eye areas. All my other joints seem to be fine, they do pop after waking but thats about it. It just dont make sense for the two to be related since E2 is only at a 35, but the timing is impeccable.

Are you sure the bloating is from E2, could be just from TRT and hormones adjustment.

I am going to say yes, both bloat and water retention improved after adding the extra weekly dose of AI. My socks would have bad indentions, and the bloating was visible. When the bloating left it was as if I lost weight, only I didnt. I am still retaining some water, my wedding ring isnt fitting right yet. But nothing compared to before, the sock indentions are less than before as well.

 

[cja]

If you are using drugs for erectile dysfunction they will make your back hurt. Some would say its from the sex but they will make your back hurt without sex. The best things I found for myself for a trashed back is Krill oil, Boron and Bio Curcumin. The Curcumin is a little harsh on the gut if taken for long time. It says Boron will increase estrogen but I haven't had that problem.

No ED pills here, its not that it just hurts. I have a MRI that shows the problems, only I did not feel them before lowing my E2. E2 has always been high, for all I know its been high my whole life. I had a crappy PCP who just gave me a Test CYP script and told me to take 1 shot per month. Once I transferred my treatment, I was not able to get a per TRT reading any more as they didnt take me off TRT. I am thankful for this, but now wishing I had a pre TRT base besides Total T levels.

Also...Boron I thought killed E2, not raise it? I actually have some Boron I bought in hopes of keeping off a AI.

 

[themud]

With the risk of being called a quack. I am a chiropractor. For what it is worth the majority of people walking around have an asymptomatic disc herniation in the neck and or lower back. With an acute injury or worsening of the lower back due to accident etc dr.s will have an MRI done and see a disc bulge. A symptom of radiculopathy always has a differential dx of disc herniation, but can also be an inflamation of the nerve root as well as the meningel nerves surrounding the disc. After running a very large clinic for years concurrent with Ortho and Neuro surgeons it is a wait and see. PT and DC care with anti inflam rx to see if it will resolve without surgical intervention which is usually the case.

Many people have no hx of injury or accident and wake up with severe neck pain or lower back pain and MRI confirms idiopathitc disc bulge.

Hope that helps.

 

[cja]

With the risk of being called a quack. I am a chiropractor. For what it is worth the majority of people walking around have an asymptomatic disc herniation in the neck and or lower back. With an acute injury or worsening of the lower back due to accident etc dr.s will have an MRI done and see a disc bulge. A symptom of radiculopathy always has a differential dx of disc herniation, but can also be an inflamation of the nerve root as well as the meningel nerves surrounding the disc. After running a very large clinic for years concurrent with Ortho and Neuro surgeons it is a wait and see. PT and DC care with anti inflam rx to see if it will resolve without surgical intervention which is usually the case.

Many people have no hx of injury or accident and wake up with severe neck pain or lower back pain and MRI confirms idiopathitc disc bulge.

Hope that helps.

Actually yes it does help, Thanks. Over 10 years ago I had twisted when a refrigerator dolly malfunctioned, I fell went to ER, they said I had a muscle spasm. Every year since then my back has "flared" up, taking a few days off cleared it up. This time it is not clearing, this time also coincides with lowering my E2 to the lowest it has been since TRT.

MRI does show disc resting on Nerve Root of S1 if that makes any sense? To me that report looks pretty bad, but as you said most people probably have some sort of disc bulging. I guess its safe to say that a higher E2 wasnt masking some of the pains I am feeling as of late. In a way this is good, because I feel great overall, minus my lower back of course.

I am being sent to Physical Therapy, will this really work, or this is just a formality required by insurance companies in hopes of saving some money? Its been about a month now, and the pain hasn't went away. I have learned how I can move without triggering movement against the nerve, but I am very limited.

 

[themud]

Yes. PT will help and it does take some time. How long is anyone's guess. Sometimes months on end.

It is not a formality. PT care is very expensive. If the PT does joint manipulation it can very much help along with axial traction, electric stim for pain and stretch/strength.

 

[cja]

Yes. PT will help and it does take some time. How long is anyone's guess. Sometimes months on end.

It is not a formality. PT care is very expensive. If the PT does joint manipulation it can very much help along with axial traction, electric stim for pain and stretch/strength.

I just want the pain to go away so I can return to work. Yes I am getting paid my full 40 hours to sit at home, but I am bored to death! So many things I can do, but cant for fear of making this worse, or even getting seen doing something that resembles work.

 

[cja]

I want to investigate this more thoroughly. After watching this video on Facet joints, it seem plausible to me that a higher E2 can mask some of the symptoms of Facet Disease. If E2 somehow acts as a lubricant, and this is taken away or greatly reduced, it only makes sense that joint pain will be left behind. Just because I am not seeing joint pain in other areas, doesn't mean the reduction of E2 is not to blame (term blame used loosely). It only means that the excess lubricant my joints had from a higher E2 was masking the issue.

I guarantee if I ask my Dr. she will be clueless on the subject. In fact it took 3 appointments for her to realise I was beyond a simple strain. It wasnt until she had me walk on my heels that she said "Oh, you have disc bulging". BTW I was not able to walk on my heels. I wonder if Dr. Saya has ever seen anything like this over the years. At the end of the day I want E2 to be proper, if there is a connection to the Facet Disease symptoms and E2 I would like the Facet Disease to be addressed. Raising the E2 to provide more lubricant to these joints would only continue to allow the issue to get worse.

TL;DR In short I believe my high E2 provided excess lubricant to Facet Joints. Evidence is, E2 lowered and Advanced Facet Disease was revealed. For explanation on Facet Joint, watch the video in beginning of this post, or here.

 

[cja]

So I found this while waiting for my flight. I know its a study on women, but one would think the effects would be somewhat the same in men.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01427-7

 

[cja]

I wanted to update this, I hate to see a thread left "open". Someone may have this same scenario in the future and this may help.

I began my Physical Therapy a few days ago. The therapist was able to explain in detail as to what has happened, as well as what is happening. In short my disc IS resting on the nerve root between S1 and L5. The tightness and wringing of the towel type pain (I thought this was Facet Joints and lack of lubricant from lowering E2) is from other back muscles compensating for the injury of the disc. While I do have Facet Disease, this is not what is keeping me from bending in certain directions, it is my muscles protecting my back.

Bottom Line...my lowering of E2 from 48 to 35 did nothing. Having a higher E2 did not mask the Facet Disease by over lubricating my joints, even though this does seem very plausible to me. My back went into protection mode by turning on optional ways of moving, creating a tightened back muscle system (lack of proper terms). I know everyone pretty much said the same thing, but I am one of those people who search and search and need to rule out everything before accepting the first more common reasoning. A huge character flaw I know

Thanks Guys!