Hello from Virginia, experienced IM Test user

[PapiChulo]

As the title indicates, I am experienced with IM use of Testosterone due to Congenital Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism. I started using Test IM at age 16, am presently in my late 50s, get my Rxs from my physicians, dispensed by noncompunding retail pharmacy, and happy to provide any insight to new users or those seeking insight from experienced IM Test users. Oral Test does not work for my condition so I can provide no insight on Oral formulations. Im also an HIV Cardiology researcher (preclinical, bench-top science), currently writing a manuscript for publication on HIV Associated Atherosclerosis (molecular mechanisms therein), and likely would benefit from PWH experiences regarding cardiac events, interventions by their physicians, clinical studies involvement, etc.

I am not a physician. Looking forward to learning from your folks.

Hablo español

Gracias

 

[bixt]

So....I have a question. How is libido after decades of TRT? Normal? For example, given your age, how many times a week do you have sex?

 

[PapiChulo]

Normal as long as I adhere to treatment which is rarely the case. Sex is often daily, sometimes every other day, as long as I inject myself. Therein lies the problem. My endocrinologist wants me to use IM every (q) 10 days but I opt for q 14 days sometimes q 21 days. I take 0.8 cc of test cypionate from a vial of 200 mg/ml. After these many years of using IM, I hate more than ever seeing a 21 G stainless steel metal tube, 1.5" sliding into my quadriceps. Its just my personal hangup. I prefer to inject on a fixed schedule, same day, same time, usually Friday evenings before bedtime. Injecting midweek is just a hassle for me, plus I forget.

Sex is also contingent on other factors. While in my 30s I would want to frack everything in site because my youth was a very different world than my adult world today. Back then I slept 8-9 hours per day, ate regular healthy meals, hit the gym q 5 days for weight resistance training and return same day for cardio. My career job was easy, made great money and was bored. Today my sleep hygiene sucks, I am married and also serve as my spouse's caretaker, I manage the household, a high pressured career that is thrilling but not easy, publish or perish paradigm, etc.

IM Test does increase libido for the first several days. However IM test cypionate / enanthate have a half life of 8 days. Peaks and troughs are real issues. After 10 days I crash which is when my better half reminds me I need to inject myself.

It all depends on sleep, stress, mental health, nutrition / energy, and also timing of injection of test.

I hope that helps

 

[Willyt]

Normal as long as I adhere to treatment which is rarely the case. Sex is often daily, sometimes every other day, as long as I inject myself. Therein lies the problem. My endocrinologist wants me to use IM every (q) 10 days but I opt for q 14 days sometimes q 21 days. I take 0.8 cc of test cypionate from a vial of 200 mg/ml. After these many years of using IM, I hate more than ever seeing a 21 G stainless steel metal tube, 1.5" sliding into my quadriceps. Its just my personal hangup. I prefer to inject on a fixed schedule, same day, same time, usually Friday evenings before bedtime. Injecting midweek is just a hassle for me, plus I forget.

As an experienced TRT guy, have you ever experimented with shallow IM? Or subq? It would be so much easier than using those 1.5" harpoons into your quad.

 

[Blackhawk]

Normal as long as I adhere to treatment which is rarely the case. Sex is often daily, sometimes every other day, as long as I inject myself. Therein lies the problem. My endocrinologist wants me to use IM every (q) 10 days but I opt for q 14 days sometimes q 21 days. I take 0.8 cc of test cypionate from a vial of 200 mg/ml. After these many years of using IM, I hate more than ever seeing a 21 G stainless steel metal tube, 1.5" sliding into my quadriceps. Its just my personal hangup. I prefer to inject on a fixed schedule, same day, same time, usually Friday evenings before bedtime. Injecting midweek is just a hassle for me, plus I forget.

Sex is also contingent on other factors. While in my 30s I would want to frack everything in site because my youth was a very different world than my adult world today. Back then I slept 8-9 hours per day, ate regular healthy meals, hit the gym q 5 days for weight resistance training and return same day for cardio. My career job was easy, made great money and was bored. Today my sleep hygiene sucks, I am married and also serve as my spouse's caretaker, I manage the household, a high pressured career that is thrilling but not easy, publish or perish paradigm, etc.

IM Test does increase libido for the first several days. However IM test cypionate / enanthate have a half life of 8 days. Peaks and troughs are real issues. After 10 days I crash which is when my better half reminds me I need to inject myself.

It all depends on sleep, stress, mental health, nutrition / energy, and also timing of injection of test.

I hope that helps

Welcome.

I think you will find alternatives to your kind of routine presented here that tend to serve the needs of many men better than the kind of protocol you've been on for so long. You are expressing that the long 10 day injections schedule makes you crash. Most men experience the same even at 1/week interval. I even had trouble with every 3 days. This is a well know problem with old school protocols, and standard prescribing instructions, and why many men are unsuccessful with TRT. You do not need to use large needles, or inject large amounts and can be much more comfortable injecting more frequently.

If that photo is you, you are lean enough that 1/2" insulin syringes as small as 29 gauge will probably reach shallow IM in your Delts just fine. I can only imagine the needle fatigue you experience. Ugh! And in many men SubQ is just fine. If you are using a cottonseed oil base, 27g may be better. And to get off the roller coaster, many of us inject MUCH more frequently, as often as daily. Common variations are 2x/week, every 3 days, every other day and daily.

Individual protocols are just that, individual, and what works well for one, may or may not work well for you. The only way to find out is to try different things.

It may be a challenge to unwind your beliefs in how to manage a protocol. I think that your researcher's mind may uncover a lot from this forum. Of course there is also a lot of extraneous bunk and confirmation bias. A discerning approach is warranted.

As an extreme contrast to your protocol, I am currently on daily injections of a T-cyp/prop blend at 5.6mg/day injected subQ. This is the lowest dose I have ever taken. based on symptoms, it may be just under what I actually need, but I have co-morbidities, and sorting causation of symptoms can be challenging

Really happy to have an intelligent educated new member and willingness to share your experience! However, I personally would not be interested in your approach to a protocol! We know that this does not work out for many men.

 

[bixt]

Sex is often daily, sometimes every other day, as long as I inject myself. Therein lies the problem. My endocrinologist wants me to use IM every (q) 10 days but I opt for q 14 days sometimes q 21 days.

Highly highly interesting!!!! Thanks.

 

[Systemlord]

After these many years of using IM, I hate more than ever seeing a 21 G stainless steel metal tube, 1.5" sliding into my quadriceps.

Oh my, save yourself some misery and go shallow IM using insulin syringes.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Highly highly interesting!!!! Thanks.

I see you over there charting another low frequency, high libido datapoint.

 

[PapiChulo]

Welcome.

I think you will find alternatives to your kind of routine presented here that tend to serve the needs of many men better than the kind of protocol you've been on for so long. You are expressing that the long 10 day injections schedule makes you crash. Most men experience the same even at 1/week interval. I even had trouble with every 3 days. This is a well know problem with old school protocols, and standard prescribing instructions, and why many men are unsuccessful with TRT. You do not need to use large needles, or inject large amounts and can be much more comfortable injecting more frequently.

If that photo is you, you are lean enough that 1/2" insulin syringes as small as 29 gauge will probably reach shallow IM in your Delts just fine. I can only imagine the needle fatigue you experience. Ugh! And in many men SubQ is just fine. If you are using a cottonseed oil base, 27g may be better. And to get off the roller coaster, many of us inject MUCH more frequently, as often as daily. Common variations are 2x/week, every 3 days, every other day and daily.

Individual protocols are just that, individual, and what works well for one, may or may not work well for you. The only way to find out is to try different things.

It may be a challenge to unwind your beliefs in how to manage a protocol. I think that your researcher's mind may uncover a lot from this forum. Of course there is also a lot of extraneous bunk and confirmation bias. A discerning approach is warranted.

As an extreme contrast to your protocol, I am currently on daily injections of a T-cyp/prop blend at 5.6mg/day injected subQ. This is the lowest dose I have ever taken. based on symptoms, it may be just under what I actually need, but I have co-morbidities, and sorting causation of symptoms can be challenging

Really happy to have an intelligent educated new member and willingness to share your experience! However, I personally would not be interested in your approach to a protocol! We know that this does not work out for many men.

in no way am I prescribing, advocating or advising others to do what I do. I was asked a question as to my experience and that was my frame of reference. Otherwise I appreciate your feedback. Truly. I am well aware of bodybuilders, gym rats, late hypogonadal and HIV positive men using all types of formulations, types of administration (pills, creams, injections) and routes of acquisition (e.g. online supply vs local CVS pharmacy). However they are never lifers like me. This is my normal life mot a muscle building strategy. The photo is of me. I trained for an NPC contest years ago and my trainer, an IFBB Pro, had access to everything under the sun including insulin, diuretics, metformin, etc. I chose none of his products but became aware of what some BB do, and I offer no judgment

With that said, Im open to ideas as I hate the IM q 10/14 days option. However, I follow evidenced based data, which is why I largely part company with others. If you can find it on Pubmed, we can talk. Otherwise Im an EBD diehard

Subq sounds attractive. I tried IVF under the guidance of a reproductive fertility physician, to have children and was prescribed HCG subq every 3 days for 6 months to raise my sperm count. It sucked worse than IM likely because of the frequency. Hated it.

Testosterone molecule is an aromatic steroid hormone based on the cholesterol molecule. Steroids (in the physiological sense of the word) have their mechanism of action at the nucleus of the cells where it can affect its efficacy at the DNA/RNA level. Test is useless if it fails to reach the nuclear genetic material. Injecting into skeletal muscle allows the drug to be delivered via a rich blood supply to its target tissue. Reaching a rich blood supply is key. I do not believe subcutaneous does that.

See:

Injection Types & Sites: What you need to know

Learn about the common types of injection and where on the body they should be given. Plus steps for giving injections at home and overcoming fear of needles.

www.drugs.com

Subcutaneous: "sub" (under), "cutaneous" (skin).​

Subcutaneous will deliver the anabolic oil under the skin where collagen and fat reside. There it will sit until it is exposed to blood which may happen later than desired, if ever. Add to this the ester, either cypionate or enanthate, which delivers the drug slowly, a subcutaneous delivery will drag things out considerably. If you are using your insulin needles to inject in your skeletal muscle, I dont know how you do it. When I use a 23G needle, the viscosity of the drug is too dense to push in the syringe. 25G is impossible. Insulin is 31G​

what am I missing here?

thanks for the welcome

​

 

[tareload]

what am I missing here

Welcome!!

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

The misinformation on here regarding IM vs SQ injections and resulting serum TT levels is staggering but understandable. The area under the curve (AUC) will be invariant to injection method (IM vs SQ) for equivalent testosterone ester dose. There can be a measurable difference in...

forums.t-nation.com

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

See below and TU paper above. 4 ml oil injection…i will pass: The PK profile of serum testosterone and its two bioactive metabolites, DHT and E2 in this study indicate that the SC injections of TU displayed no significant differences from the IM route. This is consistent with PK studies of...

forums.t-nation.com

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

100 mg/week of TC IM vs SQ IM modeled as 4.5 day elimination half life and 8 hr absorption half life SQ modeled as 8 day elimination half life and 16 hr absorption half life E7D injections and typical clearance volume… IM is orange and SQ is blue. If you were only looking at trough TT...

forums.t-nation.com

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

What do you mean by “Everything”? Please define. SQ and IM will have two distinct PK profiles for a given individual. Look at the scatter on TU plot in Fig. 1 above. SQ injection will have lower peak and higher trough than IM in general but same amount of T injected so AUC invariant to...

forums.t-nation.com

Free Test Increasing after Lowering Dosage?

Check out the PK data with Xyosted. While it’s an expensive product the clinical trial data is useful. Given the state of obesity today, one dude’s IM is another dude’s SC with 27g 0.5in pin :-). I appreciate your honesty. Definitely measurable elimination half life difference with Xyosted...

forums.t-nation.com

Intramuscular vs SubQutaneous Injections for Testosterone

Yes I would agree that an obese individual may have a much longer absorption / apparent elimination half life than standard person with reasonable BF and they may also have an elevated aromatase activity. The more ripped the individual the closer the two methods should be WRT PK profile. For...

forums.t-nation.com

I use 28g insulin pin with Test Cyp shallow IM / deep SC.

Last but not least I unleash the kraken:

subcutaneous injection into stomach

Is 80mg injected into my belly every 4th day to much? Meaning is 80mg to much to inject at one time into belly?

www.excelmale.com

 

[Blackhawk]

@readalot has shown you the tip of the iceberg. There is an extraordinary amount of information available on every aspect of your desire for documentation on excelmale.

In addition to readalot, @madman, @Cataceous, @FunkOdyssey, @nelsonvergel and others are prolific posters of research information here.

Have fun!

P.S. I'll just add that I like many of us use tiny needles and small frequent doses and we have great results also documented by our labs. I use 3/8" 30g for T cyp and prop in grapeseed oil, and mix HCG in the same syringe to reduce the total number if injections. My last labs were TT about 1000 and FT 28 using LC/MS MS and eqilibrium dialysis assays on 70mg / week as 20mg every other day doses, with 300 iu HCG.

Like I said with cottonseed oil some need to use 27g. I am not pulling this info out of my ass, I am sorry I do not have links to every detail for you. You will need to go on your own treasure hunt!

And I'll add that based on your own personal experience, you have developed very strong opinions and carry confirmation bias. We all do. Be careful to not believe everything you think!

And, really glad to have you here!

 

[Blackhawk]

Oh. And the purpose of this forum really is for lifers. You are in good company. We also have many members who come and go who have AAS goals and those goals often create conflict here.

You are a more unique case coming to TRT at such an early age, but I sure feel that you and I are in it together. Ive been on TRT for over 5 years and never had any AAS intentions except for one try with nandrolone for wasting from cancer. I was hypogonadal when I started and my motivation is just be healthy. TRT was a really tough go for me at the start until experimentation under the supervision of Dr Saya got me to a good place. In some ways I could even say I owe my life to TRT. I was a mess, and would not have made it this far with cancer and other co morbidities, if I did not have a solid hormonal baseline

 

[tareload]

a 23G needle

High Hemoglobin/Hematocrit with Thick Blood

You should take a gander at the typical 16g needle for standard blood donation. Ouch.

forums.t-nation.com

 

[tareload]

How Much Precious AAS are You Wasting with Your Injection?

FYI… #I_WANT_MY_TO_KNOW_MY_DOSE_TO_THE_NEAREST_ONE_MG Quite a difference. Also they put a confidence interval on the dead space for the three options.

forums.t-nation.com

 

[BigTex]

As the title indicates, I am experienced with IM use of Testosterone due to Congenital Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism. I started using Test IM at age 16, am presently in my late 50s, get my Rxs from my physicians, dispensed by noncompunding retail pharmacy, and happy to provide any insight to new users or those seeking insight from experienced IM Test users. Oral Test does not work for my condition so I can provide no insight on Oral formulations. Im also an HIV Cardiology researcher (preclinical, bench-top science), currently writing a manuscript for publication on HIV Associated Atherosclerosis (molecular mechanisms therein), and likely would benefit from PWH experiences regarding cardiac events, interventions by their physicians, clinical studies involvement, etc.

I am not a physician. Looking forward to learning from your folks.

Hablo español

Gracias

Welcome Papi! Good to see someone who started as young as you still doing the TRT. Nice to see another man who has been at this about as long as I have. We are all here to learn together. Keep posting!

Sound a bit like you are suffering from injection burn out. Might consider going sub-q and taking a break from the deep IM stuff.

 

[PapiChulo]

Thanks to all of you men for the warm welcome. Much obliged. Kudos to you keyboard scientists (or perhaps real scientists as well?). You folks have an impressive collection of published literature on the subject of all things testosterone. Yes I visited all of the links that @readalot provided, to whom I am very humbled by his generosity in providing so many links. Kracken indeed. I even downloaded 3 of the PDF articles via my university online access.

I noticed @madman and a few others provide the bulk of these literature pieces. If you have not earned an advanced degree in the sciences, especially doctorates, you might consider pursuing one. If you think you are too old, think again.

54-year-old medical student at Wake Forest School of Medicine is living her dream​

You may have read that alot of the crop of students entering graduate schools are not what they used to be. I teach, mentor and advise these students and some are really great kids with great promise. Most I fear them having access to patients. You guys would give them a good run, perhaps squash them and perhaps motivate them to up their game. Universities are failing across the country, and the medical sciences desperately need driven students.

OTOH, if you already have your advanced graduate degree in the medical sciences, I would be interested in your area of concentration re: research, published articles, clinical work, etc.

Re: SQ....I'm not convinced yet. However, I do have several allergy kits at home with 26G 5/8" needles for injecting Bimix for my ED PRN. Cialis 20 mg qd does not do it for me so Bimix is required. Unfortunately these needles are not sterile. After having had MRSA once due to a contaminated "preacher curl" bench at the gym, that gave me folliculitis in my armpits, I will not risk using a non-sterile needle. Perhaps sterile SQ needles are available but in Virginia, they would require a prescription, which means more hassles.

I will give all of this serious thought, and make a decision for what works best for me. It has been 12 days since my last IM, and I already feel the crash coming. So it goes

Thanks for letting me be in your company.

 

[tareload]

keyboard scientists (or perhaps real scientists as well?)

LMAO! Burger flipper here.

Glad you enjoyed them.

Best wishes on your journey.

 

[tareload]

However, I follow evidenced based data, which is why I largely part company with others. If you can find it on Pubmed, we can talk. Otherwise Im an EBD diehard

See above. Compare AUC IM vs SQ. If you go the SQ route I do recommend applying pressure for a few seconds after injection.

Re: SQ....I'm not convinced yet.

https://www.amazon.com/EasyTouch-Insulin-Syringe-Needle-2-Inch/dp/B08589MG8D

Happy reading. Still a bargain.

Pharmacokinetics, safety, and patient acceptability of subcutaneous versus intramuscular testosterone injection for gender-affirming therapy: A pilot study

Purpose. Results of a study comparing testosterone exposure and tolerability with subcutaneous versus i.m. administration are presented.Methods. In a prospectiv

academic.oup.com

Pharmacokinetics and Acceptability of Subcutaneous Injection of Testosterone Undecanoate

Can injectable testosterone undecanoate (TU) be administered effectively and acceptably by the subcutaneous (SC) route?To investigate the acceptability and pharmacokinetics (PK) of SC injection of TU.Randomized sequence, crossover clinical study of SC ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

100 mg/week of TC IM vs SQ


IM modeled as 4.5 day elimination half life and 8 hr absorption half life
SQ modeled as 8 day elimination half life and 16 hr absorption half life


E7D injections and typical clearance volume…


IM is orange and SQ is blue.


If you were only looking at trough TT value then you might mistakenly conclude you are getting better results with SQ.


Here’s the stats:


IM left / SQ right

 

[tareload]

You may have read that alot of the crop of students entering graduate schools are not what they used to be. I teach, mentor and advise these students and some are really great kids with great promise. Most I fear them having access to patients. You guys would give them a good run, perhaps squash them and perhaps motivate them to up their game. Universities are failing across the country, and the medical sciences desperately need driven students.

Good points. You could see this even 15-20 years ago. With the integral (screen history, dt) over the last 10 years with IPads, phones, etc, it has gotten much worse. Feedback from old peers still in the game indicate even science/engineering programs are now a daycare program (students call the shots on test times/dates, windows in the room, "I'm not feeling good", etc).

I feel bad for the kids today trying to learn math on a screen. It's not their fault then had a large uncontrolled experiment run on them. Neurotransmitters are a fickle game. But you captured that with your homeostatic milieu comment.

 

[tareload]

Perhaps sterile SQ needles are available but in Virginia, they would require a prescription, which means more hassles.

Nothing stopping you from using these shallow IM. If you have no bodyfat then it really all is more of a pissing contest debate. If you are fat then PK profile will be impacted most likely but AUC won't.