HCG is not working anymore. Do I have antibodies to it?

Buy Lab Tests Online
J

jimithing

Member
Hi all,

So I just got my latest lab results online through Quest. I see my doc next week. This would explain why I feel like shit the last 2-3 months steadily feeling worse. I thought that I was overtraining as I was training for a lifting comp and deadlifting 2x a week - i thought I had fried my CNS. Maybe that was part of it but my lab results would suggest otherwise.

Im currently taking Hcg injections 450iu 3x a week.

Here's my labs with ranges taken 10-28-14.

Test total 295 250-1100
Test Free 44.1 46-224
Test Bioavailable 96.4 110-575
SHBG 26 10-50
Estradiol Ultrasensitive 12 <25

This is my 4th set of labs now since I started this whole thing a year and a half ago and the lowest my T has been.

I initially had started on Hcg sublingual for a few months as my doc had said he had some patients respond to it. After a few months and finding this forum I questioned it as I hadn't felt any different and my labs confirmed it.

Nov 2013 on sublingual Hcg I forget dose
Test total 363
E2 12

Jan 2014 Now on Hcg injections 350u 3x a week. Best I ever felt this whole time.
Test Total 1071
E2 43
After this lab my doc wanted me to take anastrazole at .25mg 2x a week.

May 2014 Hcg 400u 3x week and .25 anastrazole 2x week
Test total 526
E2 <2 My E tanked and I felt like crap. Stopped anastrazole after this completely.

So here I am now i've come full circle and actually have worse numbers than when I started this and Im actually paying $$ for this. Symptoms I've had recently. Fatigue, sleep like crap, low sex drive, depression, my wife would say im moody. Gains at the gym are nil and motivation to workout is nil. Im typically pretty active and lift/workout 4-6 days per week and eat a good diet. Im pretty down at the moment and frustrated.

I know that I need to make the switch to T injections along with Hcg but my wife and I are trying to have a baby. Hopefully in the next 2 weeks she'll find out she is pregnant. See my other post here.

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...erapy-vs-hcg-and-test-when-trying-to-conceive

I feel like if I was going to try going up on the Hcg I'd need to almost double the dose or go up significantly or start with T and get my sperm checked every couple months. Thoughts?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Defy Medical TRT clinic doctor
I still stick with my previous suggestion of TRT+ HCG. Like you said, testing sperm quality and motility at baseline and then 6 weeks later would be good. You can follow the Lipshultz' protocol.
 
Thanks guys. I meet with my doc this coming week and have sent him the Lipshultz study and told him I want to discuss this. He's definitely open to it. Im just nervous that it will work or not.

What I don't understand is why my numbers dropped so far. If I understand this correctly, are my leydig cells desensitized to the Hcg? If so does that mean anything long term or now that Im likely starting T therapy too.

Just a side note I have not felt this much like shit in a looong time. Energy, sex drive, sleep all down and Im super irritable. Im assuming this is what guys feel like after they do a cycle - just awful. Can't wait to change this.

thanks!
 
jimithing said:
Hi all,

So I just got my latest lab results online through Quest. I see my doc next week. This would explain why I feel like shit the last 2-3 months steadily feeling worse. I thought that I was overtraining as I was training for a lifting comp and deadlifting 2x a week - i thought I had fried my CNS. Maybe that was part of it but my lab results would suggest otherwise.

Im currently taking Hcg injections 450iu 3x a week.

Here's my labs with ranges taken 10-28-14.

Test total 295 250-1100
Test Free 44.1 46-224
Test Bioavailable 96.4 110-575
SHBG 26 10-50
Estradiol Ultrasensitive 12 <25

This is my 4th set of labs now since I started this whole thing a year and a half ago and the lowest my T has been.

I initially had started on Hcg sublingual for a few months as my doc had said he had some patients respond to it. After a few months and finding this forum I questioned it as I hadn't felt any different and my labs confirmed it.

Nov 2013 on sublingual Hcg I forget dose
Test total 363
E2 12

Jan 2014 Now on Hcg injections 350u 3x a week. Best I ever felt this whole time.
Test Total 1071
E2 43
After this lab my doc wanted me to take anastrazole at .25mg 2x a week.

May 2014 Hcg 400u 3x week and .25 anastrazole 2x week
Test total 526
E2 <2 My E tanked and I felt like crap. Stopped anastrazole after this completely.

So here I am now i've come full circle and actually have worse numbers than when I started this and Im actually paying $$ for this. Symptoms I've had recently. Fatigue, sleep like crap, low sex drive, depression, my wife would say im moody. Gains at the gym are nil and motivation to workout is nil. Im typically pretty active and lift/workout 4-6 days per week and eat a good diet. Im pretty down at the moment and frustrated.

I know that I need to make the switch to T injections along with Hcg but my wife and I are trying to have a baby. Hopefully in the next 2 weeks she'll find out she is pregnant. See my other post here.

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...erapy-vs-hcg-and-test-when-trying-to-conceive

I feel like if I was going to try going up on the Hcg I'd need to almost double the dose or go up significantly or start with T and get my sperm checked every couple months. Thoughts?
Click to expand...


Hi there!

Just my .2 cents but I felt just like you except my T levels were great. I was taking 1mg anastrozole/week and e2 levels tanked just like you. Since then I tried .25mg/week and E2 levels went from 66 to 22 in just 3 weeks. I will be taking .25mg anastrozole ONCE a week and see how it goes.....

I wasn't responding to TRT as I should've so Dr suggested taking adrenal supplements. I take Gaia Adrenal supplements now and am able to sleep through the night. Perhaps some of your issues are related to poor sleep?

Give adrenal supplements a try. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the input. I have had adrenal issues in the past but I think this is related to my T numbers. I slept very well when my T was high. I actually have been taking some Adrenal rebuilder i think it's called from Pure Encapsulations for the last few months.
 
So I met with my doc today. I was hoping to get a response on this forum as to why my numbers dropped.

My doc came up with a few potential reasons.
1) the vials of Hcg I was using somehow became inactive. I don't think this is very likely as it's been over multiple shipments and vials.
2) My body has down regulated receptors for the Hcg, and my testes aren't responding and that based on my current dose (450iu 3x a week) he would not expect a higher dose to make a difference
3)I have potentially developed antibodies to the Hcg which would render it inactive prior to it being able to stimulate testicular tissue. I have not heard of this before - anyone have any input on this?

Here are my options that he gave me. Keep in mind my wife and I are trying to conceive. She is having issues ovulating we've been working with a fertility specialist on her end the last 6 months.

A) Stop Hcg and everything all together and see how I respond. Im not all that inclined to do this but im not sure if i'd actually feel any worse than I do now as the Hcg doesn't seem to even be working.
B) Try a different name brand Hcg to rule out that the prior Hcg was active. Im not really interesed in this option as I don't think that's the reason.
C) Try Clomid 2-3 days per week and drop the Hcg. Clomid can help raise T levels also supporting sperm count.
D) Start T cyp therapy with or without HcG at 70-80mg 2x a week. Get a sperm rechecked in 2 months. He thinks that if I am going to have an issue with sperm that it we would start to see it around 2 months.

So Im inclined to start the T but my wife is not. She wasn't able to make my appt with me today so (i don't think) totally understands everything. My only concerns is this antibody thing that he's talking about - if that is the case then the HcG likely won't do anything even with T.

Again looking for thoughts on this particular question with regards to me potentially having antibodies to the Hcg. Obviously it's just a theory and hasn't been formally studied. But there are a lot of studies that have not been done in this field. He said he has colleagues in the HRT field that do believe in it.

I don't know if Lipshultz does long distance treatment but Im going to email his office and ask to try to get a 2nd opinion on this.
thanks
 
jimithing said:
So I met with my doc today. I was hoping to get a response on this forum as to why my numbers dropped.

My doc came up with a few potential reasons.
1) the vials of Hcg I was using somehow became inactive. I don't think this is very likely as it's been over multiple shipments and vials.
2) My body has down regulated receptors for the Hcg, and my testes aren't responding and that based on my current dose (450iu 3x a week) he would not expect a higher dose to make a difference
3)I have potentially developed antibodies to the Hcg which would render it inactive prior to it being able to stimulate testicular tissue. I have not heard of this before - anyone have any input on this?

Here are my options that he gave me. Keep in mind my wife and I are trying to conceive. She is having issues ovulating we've been working with a fertility specialist on her end the last 6 months.

A) Stop Hcg and everything all together and see how I respond. Im not all that inclined to do this but im not sure if i'd actually feel any worse than I do now as the Hcg doesn't seem to even be working.
B) Try a different name brand Hcg to rule out that the prior Hcg was active. Im not really interesed in this option as I don't think that's the reason.
C) Try Clomid 2-3 days per week and drop the Hcg. Clomid can help raise T levels also supporting sperm count.
D) Start T cyp therapy with or without HcG at 70-80mg 2x a week. Get a sperm rechecked in 2 months. He thinks that if I am going to have an issue with sperm that it we would start to see it around 2 months.

So Im inclined to start the T but my wife is not. She wasn't able to make my appt with me today so (i don't think) totally understands everything. My only concerns is this antibody thing that he's talking about - if that is the case then the HcG likely won't do anything even with T.

Again looking for thoughts on this particular question with regards to me potentially having antibodies to the Hcg. Obviously it's just a theory and hasn't been formally studied. But there are a lot of studies that have not been done in this field. He said he has colleagues in the HRT field that do believe in it.

I don't know if Lipshultz does long distance treatment but Im going to email his office and ask to try to get a 2nd opinion on this.
thanks
Click to expand...

If you're injecting hcg and your Dr thinks you might not be benefiting from HCg then the proof would be in sperm counts before HCg and now. Hcg emulates lh. Hcg will make your sperm count to go up.

If your Dr doesn't catch up to this fact then I would consider getting another Dr.

Clomid, a female fertility drug, will also help raising t levels in men as well as sperm count.

I don't mean to be mean, but you need to be prepared to challenge your Dr on what his theories are or else you are wasting your time seeing him. Aka, you need to understand what all these drugs do prior to seeing him....because after all, he's the one that will give you the script.

If I were you I would get a sperm count before you do anything and take t shots and be on clomid for a month or so (simultaneously) afterwards and repeat the sperm count.

Or just go to Dr says or crisler!
 
a_crossfitter said:
If you're injecting hcg and your Dr thinks you might not be benefiting from HCg then the proof would be in sperm counts before HCg and now. Hcg emulates lh. Hcg will make your sperm count to go up.

If your Dr doesn't catch up to this fact then I would consider getting another Dr.

Clomid, a female fertility drug, will also help raising t levels in men as well as sperm count.

I don't mean to be mean, but you need to be prepared to challenge your Dr on what his theories are or else you are wasting your time seeing him. Aka, you need to understand what all these drugs do prior to seeing him....because after all, he's the one that will give you the script.

If I were you I would get a sperm count before you do anything and take t shots and be on clomid for a month or so (simultaneously) afterwards and repeat the sperm count.

Or just go to Dr says or crisler!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't the proof that the Hcg isn't working be that my T numbers have dropped significantly? I had a sperm count I believe in June and it looked excellent. My sperm has not been down or low that has not been an issue thus far. I don't see how the proof would be in my sperm count at this point. I already know it's good. The issue would be after I start T what my sperm count would be after a couple months or so.

I don't think you're being mean but not sure what you mean by challenge my Dr. I asked a ton of questions today. He's laid out a bunch of options for me. He's letting me decide after thinking about all of this which I respect, also know as shared decision making. I think he's pretty knowledgeable actually.
I don't know who Dr. Says or Crisler is.

Still wondering if anyone has heard of having antibodies to the Hcg?
 
It seems to me that your lab test prior to the last one showed that when you do not use anastrozole, your total testosterone is good with the 350 IU HCG three times per week protocol. Why not just go back to that? Am I missing something?
 
I hope you are not one of these men. If you are, you may be better off using Clomid.

Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1983 Nov;57(5):1041-7.

Development of anti-human chorionic gonadotropin antibodies in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. A study of four patients.
Claustrat B, David L, Faure A, Francois R.

Abstract
A young man with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism treated with hCG had resistance to this therapy and was found to have antibodies to hCG. We subsequently sought, using a sensitive radioimmunological method, anti-hCG antibodies in plasma from eight other hCG-treated children shown to have isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Antibodies to hCG were found in four of the nine. These antibodies were associated with the immunoglobulin fraction of plasma. In one patient antibodies were detected for 5 yr after therapy was discontinued. The titer and affinity constants of these antibodies were notably influenced by the therapeutic regimen used: the titer was significantly decreased and the affinity constant was lowered after reinstitution of therapy with larger hCG doses. In one patient the presence of anti-hCG antibody was associated with the failure to respond to hCG therapy.
 
There's no true way of knowing is there?

Before this whole antibody thing which may or may not be true I was truly leaning towards that Lipshultz protocol continuing my Hcg injections and adding test cyp and check sperm in 2 months and see what happens.

I still need time to think about it I guess. I appreciate the info. That study is interesting- although It was done 30 years ago and there were only 4 patients. I searched and found this same study and not much else.
 
Beyond Testosterone Book by Nelson Vergel
Another question. Assuming this is an antibody issue is there anyway to prove it with a blood test?

Thinking long term when Im on T would I ever be able to go back to Hcg or is that an unknown? Is clomid and testosterone an option for people to combat atrophy with testes? Seems like Hcg and T combo is by far the way to go long term.
 
Buy Lab Tests Online
Defy Medical TRT clinic

Share this page

Sponsors

bodybuilder test discounted labs
cheap enclomiphene
TRT in UK Balance my hormones
Discounted Labs
Testosterone Doctor Near Me
Testosterone books nelson vergel
Register on ExcelMale.com
Trimix HCG Offer Excelmale
BUY HCG CIALIS

Online statistics

Members online
7
Guests online
3
Total visitors
10
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Latest posts

© Copyright ExcelMale
Top