Game over, stopping everything. Have a question...

[SixHouse]

Thanks everyone for the help with my last post entitled "at my wits end." I'm done playing guinea pig. Want to stop everything and see where I am.

Defy has a protocol for stopping on their website, and the article links to a different protocol here on the forum. That confused me because they're quite different. The PA I spoke with just told me to do the following, which is different than both protocols (more confusion) so I'd love to hear some feedback.

Current protocol:

.25cc cypionate 3x week (150mg).
500iu HCG 2x per week.

PA says to do the following:

Stop everything for 2 weeks.
Then do 300iu HCG every day for 2 weeks.
Then stop HCG and do 25mg Clomid for 30 days.

Why stop everything for 2 weeks? I'm already doing HCG so why not just switch to 300iu per day NOW and stop the cypionate? The answer I got wasn't very informed sounding so I'd like to get some opinions.

 

[blitzen]

Two weeks is probably for the test to leave your body and with it in the system a restart is not possible. But I agree with you that for those two weeks you could continue the HCG (I would stick with what you are doing right now) and then start the protocol

 

[SixHouse]

Two weeks is probably for the test to leave your body and with it in the system a restart is not possible. But I agree with you that for those two weeks you could continue the HCG (I would stick with what you are doing right now) and then start the protocol

Yeah I think I'm going to stop the test and start doing the 300iu HCG daily. That seems to make the most sense after reading the Defy protocol here:

http://defymedical.com/blog/item/14...-safely-and-possibly-reset-youir-hormone-axis

And Nelson's suggestion here:

https://www.excelmale.com//content....-Safely-and-Possibly-Reset-Your-Hormonal-Axis

 

[S1W]

Wishing you all of the best with your transition. Please keep us updated over the next few months as to how things are going for you.

 

[FeelingLost]

Yeah I think I'm going to stop the test and start doing the 300iu HCG daily. That seems to make the most sense after reading the Defy protocol here:

http://defymedical.com/blog/item/14...-safely-and-possibly-reset-youir-hormone-axis

And Nelson's suggestion here:

https://www.excelmale.com//content....-Safely-and-Possibly-Reset-Your-Hormonal-Axis

300x7=2100iu's per week
With so much T cyp still in your system, no AI
There is a good chance your E2 is going to go thru the roof. HCG raises my E2
Be ready to pay the piper if you pick your own restart.

 

[sh1973]

Good luck man, I feel for you. In the same boat myself.

 

[SixHouse]

Can anyone tell me a medical reason why I would stop the HCG I'm already doing, only to start it again in 2 weeks? The PA at Defy was unable to answer that question.

 

[Smokin Joe]

Sixhouse, the hcg and clomid are the normal protocol from Defy for stopping TRT. That is what was prescribed for me in 2015 when I stopped TRT for a period. I don't know why you could'nt stop the hcg and transition to clomid but I would listen to them.
I stopped TRT for the final time I hope, in November 2017 after almost ayear.
I could not control my Hematocrit nor could I tolerate hcg for testicular atrophy.
I stopped cold turkey for about two weeks and then started clomid at 12mg per day for about three weeks.
Clomid was kinda tough as well but I think it helps. I 'm a firm believer in a good grade of tribulus and zinc plus copper.
It was tougher this time than before and I felt crappy for about four weeks.
I miss TRT but I'm pretty sure it's a done deal.
The entire time on trt I had an up and down libido and no increase in erectile quality. I felt really good mentally but to good I think.
So after roughly 90 days I'm back on track. My nuts have fallen back into place and my HCT is around 45 from 51.
I'll do a complete blood work up at the 120 day mark and hopefully my goods are doing better.
Good Luck to you.
Joe

 

[Gman86]

Donating blood wasn’t able to keep your HCT levels down? I ask because mine were around 51 recently, but I assumed that I could donate blood once or twice and it would fall back in range.

 

[Smokin Joe]

Gman86-From the time I began TRT to approximately 120 my HCt would go to around 50-51.

I would give blood and my HCT would drop back to 47-48.
The problem is that I had to wait 8-9weeks to give blood again. At the five to six week mark my HCT was back to 50-51.
Not worth the risk for me as my schedule to give blood can be longer due to work.
There was no balance and I had made up my mind that I would not donate any sooner than eight weeks
due to other side effects.

 

[sh1973]

Smoking Joe, how are you feeling now in general? I’m thinking of coming of myself for good.

 

[Smokin Joe]

sh1973- I am feeling very good now at the 90 day mark.
I have just started supplementing with GPC Choline with my other supplements.
Like I said earlier the first four weeks were crappy as I was grumpy and a little tired.
Honestly I have ben more physically productive in the last 60 days than the last six months on T.

I need to clarify that I did not have low t but had low free T. I thought that TRT would help but it just wasn't for me.
I am trying a more natural approach now.
I know some one, though younger than me, who doubled his Testosterone to the mid 800s in a year by supplements and eating better. His free t is at 34 from 14.
At 58 I don't think that I can do that well but I'm trying to stay in the game.
At some point way down the road I may need T again and the knowledge and experience that I've gleaned from
this site is very valuable.
I am seeing more and more guys trying to come off TRT. We are all different and one size does not fit all.

 

[sh1973]

I’m only 44yo and like you mine was not out of range but free t was low. Trt honestly has done nothing positive for me and cost me a ton of money. I think the guys that are severely defecient before starting are the ones that really benefit. I’m going to give it my all with coming off. Keep us posted on your results.

 

[Smokin Joe]

I will certainly do that and I agree with you whole heartedly.
On a side note I woke up with morning wood this morning around 5:00am.
This was after the 4:00 am pee.
Totally different feeling`.
I believe it's the choline and arginine. Though I could be wrong.
Stay in touch and let me know how it goes for you if you come off.
It is a hard decision but I am glad that made it.

 

[JPB]

Follow the advice since the chronic hcg may have increased your E levels so a little break will help that normalize as your T levels come down. Then when the T is getting low some hcg will stimulate the testicles while hopefully not increasing E as much (since your T levels will be on the low side). Finally after a month or so, Clomid will help get the LH/FSH signalling going as most of the cypionate will be out of your system.

 

[SixHouse]

Follow the advice since the chronic hcg may have increased your E levels so a little break will help that normalize as your T levels come down. Then when the T is getting low some hcg will stimulate the testicles while hopefully not increasing E as much (since your T levels will be on the low side). Finally after a month or so, Clomid will help get the LH/FSH signalling going as most of the cypionate will be out of your system.

Here's my concern. The protocol that was prescribed to me was 100% designed for a person who is NOT already using HCG with their TRT. In fact I can't find a protocol anywhere that takes this into account. Not to mention the fact that every Dr. has a different protocol for getting off TRT.

The thinking is, I'm on testosterone, LH production stops, testicles shut down and shrivel up. So they want you to stop the test and do a fairly large dose of HCG to "prime" the testicles... to wake them back up and get them ready to receive LH when your body starts making it again. Ok... but I've been using HCG the whole time. My testicles are already awake and primed. I know this because I had a semen analysis done. So why would I stop the 1,000iu HCG per week I'm doing for 2 weeks, and then do more than double that dosage for 2 weeks? It makes zero sense. And when I asked the PA to explain this to me 5 times on the phone, she couldn't. And instead of saying "I'm sorry I don't have the answer to that right now but I'll find the answer and get back to you," she told me she had to call another patient and hung up on me. Unprofessional and dangerous behavior from a "medical professional" if you ask me.

So now I'm left, as always, to design my own protocol based on my knowledge and experience, which quite frankly is usually more than the medical staff I deal with. My last urologist never heard of using HCG during TRT. I literally had to teach him about it and sit in his office showing him Youtube videos. Then he said "wow, that's pretty cool. Wanna try?" That's a true and very sad story.

I have stopped the testosterone, I'll continue to do the amount of HCG I've been doing (and according to the PA I MUST do it subq because HCG "isn't absorbed when you inject it in a muscle" ), and in 2 weeks I'll begin 25mg Clomid per day for a month and stop the HCG.

I'll report back as I go.

 

[sh1973]

In the scheme of things, none of it really matters. Your body will eventually return to normal, whether you use ancillary medications or not. In the decade of reading, research and generally asking doctors, I’ve personally never heard of a case, that someone’s body didn’t return to normal. Normal is all relative, but the body will always find homeostasis. No offense, but you’re making a big deal of nothing. Do what your doctor tells you, or whatever you feel is right. It’s your body, you ultimately have the choice to do whatever you want. There’s always this bro science you read on the internet saying TRT can’t be stopped, and is for life but that’s just BS. I’ve asked nearly every doctor I’ve had over the years, if they’ve had patients just stop. Their answers were all consistent. They feel bad for a few weeks and most end up feeling better within several weeks. So my point is, don’t worry too much.

 

[SixHouse]

I agree. In fact I've quit cold turkey in the past and everything went back to normal rather quickly. They warn you that it might not more or less to cover their ass because technically anything is possible. I do however experience some truly awful side effects for a while and I'd like to minimize them this time. Like a lot of people I'm just frustrated after many years of doing this and never finding that magic combination the doctors tell you about, with each doctor having vastly different thoughts and protocols, and some doctors and PA's being blatantly ignorant and wrong.

Give me a few weeks and I'll update. I've received several private messages from people in the same boat.

 

[sh1973]

If you’re doing hcg, I’d just finish what u have then proceed with clomid low dose

 

[Charliebizz]

I'm just glad all you guys are sharing your stories. Not to discredit trt at all but there was a time when it was the “answer” for everything on these boards. And I don't blame the guys that feel great for shouting it from the roof tops in just doesn't seem the norm to me. I see so many guys in the real world that tried it felt great at first then either came off for the hassle of it or it stopped working or effected another hormone so much that it gave them other sides.

Me me and my friend are both not seeing much of any improvement for him his libido is a little better in then off. And for me I have nocturnal errections almost all night long and maybe less pain after activity. But my anxiety is higher have tinnitus and exacerbated muscle twitching. I'm sure I have other things going on but I'm also one of the guys who can't tolerate hcg is it worth being shut down. I'm only 35. It's a really tough call to make