For discussion: Estrogen via the testes (not Aromatase)

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Background, prescribed by Dr Saya:
50mg TCyp EOD (AM)
12.5mg Test TD to the scrotum (AM; for DHT increase)
500iu HCG 2x week
50mg DHEA TD (AM)
50mg Preg TD (AM)
.15mg Anastrozole (prescribed "as needed", but is not used)

Now, the topic of HCG and how it can effect the production of Estrogen in the testes. This is something I believe in after reading it from other men, like myself, that feel HCG only complicates their E2 management and merely keeps the testes alive, which has numerous obvious benefits. Some reports in this group state that HCG has no impact on libido, penile sensitivity, or a feeling of increased well being. I feel better following Nelson's ratio theory and avoiding an AI unless negative symptoms are present.

I've used with the same results over 18 months: 250iu EOD, 400iu EOD, 100iu daily, 100iu 2x week, 500iu 2x Week (most recent use).

The experiment: at bedtime (9pm): 750iu HCG SQ E3.5D, plus .15mg Anastrozole.

The result: no increase in penile sensitivity, no increase in libido, no increase in well being. All anecdotal evidence, no "testing" was done to support a conclusion.

Notable negative side effect: on the night of the injection, and only that night, each of the three nights having injected 750iu HCG plus .15mg Anastrozole (oral, of course), I woke in a cold sweat. Hair wet, pillow wet, T-shirt wet, yet cold under the blanket. Subsequent nights were a return to what is my norm, no cold sweats or hot flashes.

Logical conclusion: This would seem to indicate a spike in E2 only hours after the HCG injection, which should only be the result of stimulated Estrogen production in the testes, NOT the aromatase enzyme. Further anecdotal evidence suggests as I thought, Anastrozole may not impact that source of Estrogen. Granted that 750iu is a hefty dose.

Just food for thought and discussion. I thought it interesting. I don't advocate shooting 750iu of HCG as being something you should do, it is obviously a much higher dose than most on TRT will use.
 
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I would have loved to see what happened with just using HCG without anastrozole at that HIGH dose. I would have also liked to see your estradiol after using DHEA and Pregnelonone since both can increase estradiol.

I have a new theory (needs to be proven!)

Some men may or may not produce enough 17-hydroxyprogesterone to get benefits of HCG. I am looking now to offer that test on www.DiscountedLabs.com

Read this paper:

Serum 17-hydroxyprogesterone strongly correlates with intratesticular testosterone in gonadotropin-suppressed normal men receiving various dosages of human chorionic gonadotropin


progesterone hcg.jpg

3000 IU of HCH daily for three days: Effect on estradiol (healthy men and men with testicular-gonadal disorders)

3000 IU HCG estradiol.jpg
 
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Vince - Have you seen any increase in libido from the Test TD on the scrotum in the AM?

Im waiting on a result from Quest right now on my DHT, Ive been using it daily for about 4 weeks now. before I began suing the cream to increase my below average DHT, I was at 36 in a 16-79 lab range.
 
Some men may or may not produce enough 17-hydroxyprogesterone to get benefits of HCG. I am looking now to offer that test on www.DiscountedLabs.com I'm really would be interested to see what my levels are at.
 
I would have loved to see what happened with just using HCG without anastrozole at that HIGH dose. I would have also liked to see your estradiol after using DHEA and Pregnelonone since both can increase estradiol.

Im waiting on a sensitive E2 test I took a week ago, Im sure that it's going to be over 40. Ive noticed some erect nipples but not itchy or discharge, puffy, etc, so I haven't given it much thought. I know It's going to be skewed (elevated) a bit by my HCG experimentation.
 
HCG is the only thing I can point to that I think elevated my E2.... I want to keep my nuts alive but I want to be on the lowest does possible... Switching to 125 units daily...
 
HCG is the only thing I can point to that I think elevated my E2.... I want to keep my nuts alive but I want to be on the lowest does possible... Switching to 125 units daily...

I was/am the same way...at one-time I used 100iu 2x a week and my nuts were fine. In feel and appearance. I have zero fertility concerns but I do want to avoid organ faliure I think I did that with that low dose.
 
I was/am the same way...at one-time I used 100iu 2x a week and my nuts were fine. In feel and appearance. I have zero fertility concerns but I do want to avoid organ faliure I think I did that with that low dose.

I have four kids so I am done in that department... Organ failure and physiologically having tiny nuts is why I want it.... It seemed to spike my T but I don't think many get that effect and Nelson posted something that it didn't boost T much either... however I do think that study was probably with men who didn't have healthy nuts... I think mine were just fine pre TRT...
 
YOu may want to consider that there are other hormonal pathways through the testes that are valuable and avoiding organ failure aren't generally advised. Many men report the shrinkage and failure to be painful. Just something to consider...when I started all this I thought...big deal if they shrink, I'd rather be sterile anyway, but there's more going on there than you may be aware of.
 
YOu may want to consider that there are other hormonal pathways through the testes that are valuable and avoiding organ failure aren't generally advised. Many men report the shrinkage and failure to be painful. Just something to consider...when I started all this I thought...big deal if they shrink, I'd rather be sterile anyway, but there's more going on there than you may be aware of.

My nuts didn't get painful as they shrank they actually became basically numb... Now I swear the size radically changes day by day.... Shape is like a shelled pecan about 1.5 times the size (on a good day).... I have no idea if that's normal or not... Sensation comes and goes... Not there more than it is....
 
This is a minor point, but the intratesticular conversion of testosterone to estrogen is STILL done by the aromatase enzyme. The problem is that LH has been shown to increase the INTRAtesticular aromatization of T->E. Thus, as astutely pointed out, it would follow that the LH analog hCG would also increase this intratesticular aromatization.

This means that the aromatization rate in the testes after administration of LH/hCG is likely higher than the rest of the body's overall aromatization rate....so an aromatase inhibitor will simply be less effective (although still have some efficacy) at controlling this intratesticular aromatization. Think of the testes as a micro-environment where the aromatase enzyme has an unfair advantage over its counterpart, aromatase inhibitor, when hCG is administered.

Indeed the conversion to estradiol ALWAYS requires aromatase, it's just a question of WHERE this conversion occurs and the differences in the aromatase activity among various tissues.

DHEA -> androstenediONE-> (aromatase)-> estrone -> estradiol.

DHEA-> androstenedIOL -> testosterone -> (aromatase)-> estradiol.
 
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HCG is the only thing I can point to that I think elevated my E2.... I want to keep my nuts alive but I want to be on the lowest does possible... Switching to 125 units daily...

I have done 170iu of hcg 2xweek, so total of 340iu per 7 days since starting trt and have not noticed any shrinkage. I'm 42. After reading about a lot of cases on here this seems kind of a low dose but it seems to be working for me. I'm the same way in that I want to take the least amount of drugs to get the most benefits. I'm going into my 4th month of trt.
 
This is a minor point, but the intratesticular conversion of testosterone to estrogen is STILL done by the aromatase enzyme. The problem is that LH has been shown to increase the INTRAtesticular aromatization of T->E. Thus, as astutely pointed out, it would follow that the LH analog hCG would also increase this intratesticular aromatization.

This means that the aromatization rate in the testes after administration of LH/hCG is likely higher than the rest of the body's overall aromatization rate....so an aromatase inhibitor will simply be less effective (although still have some efficacy) at controlling this intratesticular aromatization. Think of the testes as a micro-environment where the aromatase enzyme has an unfair advantage over its counterpart, aromatase inhibitor, when hCG is administered.

Indeed the conversion to estradiol ALWAYS requires aromatase, it's just a question of WHERE this conversion occurs and the differences in the aromatase activity among various tissues.

DHEA -> androstenediONE-> (aromatase)-> estrone -> estradiol.

DHEA-> androstenedIOL -> testosterone -> (aromatase)-> estradiol.

This is fantastic to know...Thanks Dr Saya.
 
Beyond Testosterone Book by Nelson Vergel
New UltraSensitive lab (Quest 30289 LC/MS/MS) showed my E2....58 (<=29). Tech wouldn't give me the 140244 I asked for.
That was a mix of what I was doing here with the HCG it's not a total snapshot from exactly those three injections I'm talking about.
For context my trough draw at the same time showed:
TT 903
FT 296 (I have low SHBG in the teens)
DHEA-S 248

so...in the theory of T:E ratio of 14-20...I'm at 15.5
 
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