Ex Propecia user help needed

[CoastWatcher]

Guys I really really need your help - which you have been excellent at providing so far!

On Wednesday I am see my endo to go through my results
16-Dec-2016 ! OESTRADIOL
! Serum oestradiol level 54 pmol/L (99.00 - 192.00pmol/L)
16-Dec-2016 Serum free T4 level
Serum free T4 level 16.4 pmol/L (11.00 - 24.00pmol/L)


I need to be prepared for him so that I can pin him down with solid information and facts

What should I tell him????

John Doe and Coast Watcher your help would be greatly appreciated on this

Thanks
Dan

Your estradiol was measured using the standard test, which, since you live in the UK, is the only one you have access to. That probably means your actual level is lower than this test reports it ("probably" is an important term, it is rare - but not unheard of - for the standard test to return values that skew in the other direction...it is a flawed test when used for men).

Low estradiol is a ticket to flat-out misery. What is your total testosterone?

 

[johndoesmith]

Guys I really really need your help - which you have been excellent at providing so far!

On Wednesday I am see my endo to go through my results
16-Dec-2016 ! OESTRADIOL
! Serum oestradiol level 54 pmol/L (99.00 - 192.00pmol/L)
16-Dec-2016 Serum free T4 level
Serum free T4 level 16.4 pmol/L (11.00 - 24.00pmol/L)


I need to be prepared for him so that I can pin him down with solid information and facts

What should I tell him????

John Doe and Coast Watcher your help would be greatly appreciated on this

Thanks
Dan

I am not sure why you need more info to convince him, the lab test is half of the low end of the range, what could possibly be more convincing than THAT? You already have the smoking gun.

Unless you mean to convince him of the importance of estradiol's role in men?

 

[dp1286]

Serum testosterone 17.3 nmol/L (9.90 - 27.80nmol/L)

Sorry coast watcher that was my test score

I mean what should I say when he says well your test level is now at quite a reasonable level?
How should I convince him to put me on injectable and what protocol for this?
If he trys his usual well Oestradiol tends to be low in most men?

 

[T.O.firefighter]

Stop taking any fat burner or pre work out supplements. What is on the label is not what is necessarily in the package and there could be other undeclared ingredients in there that could also effect your sex drive, kidneys and liver. They also allow you to train harder but the problem is sometimes your body will not be able to recover in particular your CNS.

 

[dp1286]

Thanks T.O I only took the fatburners (grenade) Jan-March of this year
While I dont think they helped my condition I believe propecia is at the root of all this

 

[CoastWatcher]

How open is he to input from you? How conversant and knowledgeable is he on the topic? There are reference sheets here on the Forum you can print, cited journal articles.

 

[dp1286]

Well he put me on T Gel despite my T level being in range - only after I slammed my E results on his desk!

He is pakistani so his english is not great and I am able to out talk him in a debate providing I have some guide lines to follow.

I just need some Lehman terms info to say to him on my T/E ratio and why its vital I need more T and switch from gel to injections etc

 

[CoastWatcher]

Well he put me on T Gel despite my T level being in range - only after I slammed my E results on his desk!

He is pakistani so his english is not great and I am able to out talk him in a debate providing I have some guide lines to follow.

I just need some Lehman terms info to say to him on my T/E ratio and why its vital I need more T and switch from gel to injections etc

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?2309-Role-of-Estradiol-in-Men-and-Its-Management

Posts 35, 36, and 37. There's much more on the Forum.

 

[johndoesmith]

Well he put me on T Gel despite my T level being in range - only after I slammed my E results on his desk!

He is pakistani so his english is not great and I am able to out talk him in a debate providing I have some guide lines to follow.

I just need some Lehman terms info to say to him on my T/E ratio and why its vital I need more T and switch from gel to injections etc

Well this isn't even about T/E2 ratio really because your E2 is still significantly below range.

I'd bring in any studies about the negative consequences of having low E2, of which there are many, not to mention your symptoms still persisting. Your levels are exactly the same as they were before TRT. That alone, should be enough, but if it isn't then showing the importance of having sufficient E2 should be enough.

Aren't you in the UK? If so, injections are limited, as you only have sustanon and nebido.

 

[CoastWatcher]

Well this isn't even about T/E2 ratio really because your E2 is still significantly below range.

I'd bring in any studies about the negative consequences of having low E2, of which there are many, not to mention your symptoms still persisting. Your levels are exactly the same as they were before TRT. That alone, should be enough, but if it isn't then showing the importance of having sufficient E2 should be enough.

Aren't you in the UK? If so, injections are limited, as you only have sustanon and nebido.

Johndoesmith is on point here in regard to your T:E ratio. Don't make this more complicated than it need be. In the first place the T:E ratio is not accepted as an absolute (and it shouldn't be, in my opinion), nor is it something your doctor may even be familiar with. I sent a link that contains a number of relevant studies and you should spend some time browsing the sticky posts to see what else may be available.

 

[dp1286]

Thanks guys yes based in the Uk hopefully he will move me onto injections but likely it wont be a good protocol?

 

[CoastWatcher]

Thanks guys yes based in the Uk hopefully he will move me onto injections but likely it wont be a good protocol?

One step at a time. Focus on ordering in your own mind the points you want to make in regard to your estradiol and testosterone levels. T-Enanthate can be prescribed in the UK, I recall one member here was using it.

 

[dp1286]

Hi guys

So today I saw an Endo from the NHS, I see my private endo who prescribed me T gel tomorrow

To begin he had empathy and came across very intelligent and articulate.

He dismissed E and said we shouldn't even test for E for men, and that my T was normal and he wouldnt take it any higher for risk of cardiac issues etc

He didn't no much about finatseride but agreed it seems to have caused me classic hypogonadism symtons

He suggests we now rule out sleep apnea and he wants to look at neuro and the brain. He wants to also look at my sinuses and have a scan done on those

He said I have normal T and cant get erections so there is something else going on that we are missing

I loved his enthusiasm and he seemed to care and want to help me but I dont know what to make of his opinion on Oestradiol?

Im sat at home now thinking propecia has destroyed my life and Im never going to resolve this

Thanks for all your input guys youve literally kept me going during all this but I dont where I go from here

 

[CoastWatcher]

Hi guys

So today I saw an Endo from the NHS, I see my private endo who prescribed me T gel tomorrow

To begin he had empathy and came across very intelligent and articulate.

He dismissed E and said we shouldn't even test for E for men, and that my T was normal and he wouldnt take it any higher for risk of cardiac issues etc

He didn't no much about finatseride but agreed it seems to have caused me classic hypogonadism symtons

He suggests we now rule out sleep apnea and he wants to look at neuro and the brain. He wants to also look at my sinuses and have a scan done on those

He said I have normal T and cant get erections so there is something else going on that we are missing

I loved his enthusiasm and he seemed to care and want to help me but I dont know what to make of his opinion on Oestradiol?

Im sat at home now thinking propecia has destroyed my life and Im never going to resolve this

Thanks for all your input guys youve literally kept me going during all this but I dont where I go from here

I'm glad your doctor is open, sympathetic, and planning to test for apnea (somethig that has been discussed in this thread). As for estradiol, he, and so many doctors, are years behind the times. You can show him studies, but you are probably not going to change his mind. The studies that claimed a link between TRT and heart disease have been debunked. Another indication that he's relying on old, discredited information.

At least he acknowledges that finasteride is probably playing a big role in what you're dealing with. You have written that no one had even acknowledged it as a possible factor in your situation. When is the sleep study being conducted?

 

[johndoesmith]

Hi guys

So today I saw an Endo from the NHS, I see my private endo who prescribed me T gel tomorrow

To begin he had empathy and came across very intelligent and articulate.

He dismissed E and said we shouldn't even test for E for men, and that my T was normal and he wouldnt take it any higher for risk of cardiac issues etc

He didn't no much about finatseride but agreed it seems to have caused me classic hypogonadism symtons

He suggests we now rule out sleep apnea and he wants to look at neuro and the brain. He wants to also look at my sinuses and have a scan done on those

He said I have normal T and cant get erections so there is something else going on that we are missing

I loved his enthusiasm and he seemed to care and want to help me but I dont know what to make of his opinion on Oestradiol?

Im sat at home now thinking propecia has destroyed my life and Im never going to resolve this

Thanks for all your input guys youve literally kept me going during all this but I dont where I go from here

Denying estradiol's role in men's health is analogous to denying gravity or being a flat earther.

I honestly don't know what to say, because there's no sane response to an insane statement, sometimes it's just best to avoid conversations with people who aren't making sense.

Regardless of estradiol being low, your testosterone is literally the same as it was pre TRT, that alone should be a red flag to any competent provider.

 

[dp1286]

Im not sure when the sleep test will be done - hopefully in the next month

He wants to scan my brain and also look at my sinuses too as the next step.

Are there any links to solid estradiol studies? Should I now just try and find a specialist TRT doctor? To be honest this doctor was so good and empathetic apart from this

Im seeing the endo who prescribed testogel tomorrow, Im thinking maybe to ask to double the dose of T gel while the other studies are done on myself?

Thanks Guys

 

[johndoesmith]

Im not sure when the sleep test will be done - hopefully in the next month

He wants to scan my brain and also look at my sinuses too as the next step.

Are there any links to solid estradiol studies? Should I now just try and find a specialist TRT doctor? To be honest this doctor was so good and empathetic apart from this

Im seeing the endo who prescribed testogel tomorrow, Im thinking maybe to ask to double the dose of T gel while the other studies are done on myself?

Thanks Guys

http://www.discountedlabs.com/blog/management-of-estradiol-in-men-what-do-studies-show/

Any doctor who doesn't believe estradiol is important for men is not a doctor you want to be consulting. I cannot adequately describe how wrong this is. It'd be like consulting a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution. It's not even a thing that needs to be "believed", it's fact, estradiol has significant roles in many aspects of men's health.

 

[dp1286]

Please guys for the love of god never let anyone you know or love, infact anyone touch propecia

It destroys lifes no debate no ifs and buts

 

[dp1286]

Ok guys Ive slept on yesterdays disastrous nhs appointment

Can I ask

- has anyone on here ever had ED /Hypog problems that have turned out to be sinus related?
- Has anyone on here ever had ED / Hypog problems that have been caused by sleep apnea

The Dr also mentioned something about a negative feedback loop which is why he wants to observe the brain

My plan from here is to learn / explore more about Oestradiol and possibly find a specialist TRT doctor who will help me to understand what Low E is doing?

In the meantime Im going to ask my doc today to double my dose of T gel, and then ask my Uro to get me on Cialis asap!

Thanks guys

 

[CoastWatcher]

Ok guys Ive slept on yesterdays disastrous nhs appointment

Can I ask

- has anyone on here ever had ED /Hypog problems that have turned out to be sinus related?
- Has anyone on here ever had ED / Hypog problems that have been caused by sleep apnea

The Dr also mentioned something about a negative feedback loop which is why he wants to observe the brain

My plan from here is to learn / explore more about Oestradiol and possibly find a specialist TRT doctor who will help me to understand what Low E is doing?

In the meantime Im going to ask my doc today to double my dose of T gel, and then ask my Uro to get me on Cialis asap!

Thanks guys

Sleep apnea can be a significant contributor to hypogonadism - earlier in this thread, weeks ago, that was suggested to you as an avenue of exploration. The "negative feedback loop" is the key manner in which the body regulates natural production of many hormones. Spend some time on the Forum reading the sticky posts in the various folders and consider the books that were suggested. You have to grasp the basics in order to be your own advocate.

Topical testosterone fails in a significant number of patients (it did with me). You'll know in a short time if the doubled dose makes a difference.